Sick of waiting...
Just bought Ableton Live 4....
'[
T-2
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- KVRist
- 34 posts since 28 Oct, 2003
Thanks for sharing this important and timely information.
I - for one - can sleep soundly now in the full knowledge of your most earth-shaking decision.
I - for one - can sleep soundly now in the full knowledge of your most earth-shaking decision.
Last edited by d2 on Fri Dec 31, 2004 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
I messed around with Live4 for a while. Other than the timestretch which is slightly better than Tracktion ( 
) I'm not impressed. Definitely good software, just not for me. I'll stick to T1.
) I'm not impressed. Definitely good software, just not for me. I'll stick to T1.
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
I also switched to Live as my main sequencer. And I'd have to say it's loop functions are incredibly better than T1's. The main thing to remember is 'beats' are best only for drums, if you use that on an instrument of course it won't sound so good. I'm guessing many who have tried the demo thought it was subpar because of this alone.
Anyway, they are different beasts and I'm still using T1 a bit, and hoping T2 gives me some reason to upgrade, but if I had to chose between them, Live would definitely be my choice. It's ReWire integration is fantastic, and I find it just as user-friendly as Tracktion, albeit without T1's handy keyboard shortcuts. I like editing midi in Live much better, it really feels very much like Reason, and I like working with midi as loops. But they are at different price points, it will be a fairer comparison once T2 is released. I just gave up waiting myself, but I'm an impatient bastard. I really hope T2 has everything people want, I'd love to see the little guy succeed. But Mackie looks like they are dominating many of the new features and hopefully the hardware integration doesn't take up all the dev resources. I personally think a sequencer without good loop support won't do well in today's market. It seems to be a standard feature as of late. Without this as an option you are forced to find often expensive and cumbersome plug-ins to get the functionality. This is primarily why I chose Live after not being please with the options (and after a couple months of dealing with Sonar).
Anyway, they are different beasts and I'm still using T1 a bit, and hoping T2 gives me some reason to upgrade, but if I had to chose between them, Live would definitely be my choice. It's ReWire integration is fantastic, and I find it just as user-friendly as Tracktion, albeit without T1's handy keyboard shortcuts. I like editing midi in Live much better, it really feels very much like Reason, and I like working with midi as loops. But they are at different price points, it will be a fairer comparison once T2 is released. I just gave up waiting myself, but I'm an impatient bastard. I really hope T2 has everything people want, I'd love to see the little guy succeed. But Mackie looks like they are dominating many of the new features and hopefully the hardware integration doesn't take up all the dev resources. I personally think a sequencer without good loop support won't do well in today's market. It seems to be a standard feature as of late. Without this as an option you are forced to find often expensive and cumbersome plug-ins to get the functionality. This is primarily why I chose Live after not being please with the options (and after a couple months of dealing with Sonar).
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
I personally don't see the purpose in coming in to the Tracktion forum, and telling everyone that you went to another sequencer because you were tired of waiting. What, did you think you'd scare Mackie? Well, news flash, you didn't.
If you choose against Tracktion, so what. Have fun, and make music. But don't come to the T forum and tell us all about it. Maybe it's just me(doubtful), but it really just pisses me off when someone thinks they can come here, and somehow let everyone know how impatient they are, while creating one totally useless post, and not even saying in the subject line what it's about because they just want the attention and want people to click. Yeah, I gave in. I thought this post actually was another hoax post. But it's worse. It's just a post from someone who thinks we give a rip about what sequencer they choose. Go, use your Live, but leave us alone about it. Don't come in here with 18 posts, thinking that by telling everyone your choice in the way you did, that everyone is just going to follow you, or even care what you have said.
On a kinder note: If Live is truly what makes music better for you, then fine. I hold nothing against you. I disagree for my work. Tracktion isn't for everyone. And if you really are tired of waiting, then nobody is trying to stop you from going to Live. But whatever software you use, make music with it. Enjoy yourself. Oh, and Happy New Year.
Koolkeys
(Man, I really have felt grumpy lately. Please don't take anything I've said personally.)
If you choose against Tracktion, so what. Have fun, and make music. But don't come to the T forum and tell us all about it. Maybe it's just me(doubtful), but it really just pisses me off when someone thinks they can come here, and somehow let everyone know how impatient they are, while creating one totally useless post, and not even saying in the subject line what it's about because they just want the attention and want people to click. Yeah, I gave in. I thought this post actually was another hoax post. But it's worse. It's just a post from someone who thinks we give a rip about what sequencer they choose. Go, use your Live, but leave us alone about it. Don't come in here with 18 posts, thinking that by telling everyone your choice in the way you did, that everyone is just going to follow you, or even care what you have said.
On a kinder note: If Live is truly what makes music better for you, then fine. I hold nothing against you. I disagree for my work. Tracktion isn't for everyone. And if you really are tired of waiting, then nobody is trying to stop you from going to Live. But whatever software you use, make music with it. Enjoy yourself. Oh, and Happy New Year.
Koolkeys
(Man, I really have felt grumpy lately. Please don't take anything I've said personally.)
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Seriously... it's really bizarre. That'd be like me going into a Cubase forum somewhere and randomly posting "You know, I was waiting for you guys to adopt a different workflow, and it didn't happen. So I bought Tracktion. Seeya."
Truly staggeringly incomprehensible that anyone would think we should care which host you bought. <shrug>
And... why do people always seem to be making comparisons between Live 4 and Tracktion? They're apples and oranges. I'm glad you like apples. I like oranges, but I'm not ruling apples out as a snack sometimes. Who knows, one day I might suddenly realize that apples are my thing and that oranges have had their day in the sun.
On the other hand, I might become so enamoured of oranges that I can't bear the thought of eating any other fruit.
Greg
Truly staggeringly incomprehensible that anyone would think we should care which host you bought. <shrug>
And... why do people always seem to be making comparisons between Live 4 and Tracktion? They're apples and oranges. I'm glad you like apples. I like oranges, but I'm not ruling apples out as a snack sometimes. Who knows, one day I might suddenly realize that apples are my thing and that oranges have had their day in the sun.
On the other hand, I might become so enamoured of oranges that I can't bear the thought of eating any other fruit.Greg
ing
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- KVRAF
- 3745 posts since 29 Sep, 2002 from Killafornia
Exactly. After leaving Cubase I never went back to that forum.Lunch Money wrote:Seriously... it's really bizarre. That'd be like me going into a Cubase forum somewhere and randomly posting "You know, I was waiting for you guys to adopt a different workflow, and it didn't happen. So I bought Tracktion. Seeya."
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
I "moved" from T1 to Live 4, too ... and I'm in the process of "moving" back. (In truth I upgraded from Live 2 to 4 and temporarily thought it might make Tracktion redundant, only to find out that it clearly didn't).
For what it's worth, here's why:
1. The audio engine in Live 4 seems to cut out once you reach a CPU load of about 60%, even when you set your latency/buffer settings as high as they will go. Strange for a program that gets such rave reviews, but I know from forum posts that others have found the same problem/curse.
2. Without a FREEZE function, you have to render everything straight to audio.
For example, I just did a track using drum loop plus four MIDI channels, featuring 2x Pro53, 1x FM7 and 1x B4, all fed on a bus through 1x Ambience. In Live 4 the CPU hit 80% + and audio cut out and the program ground to a complete halt.
Repeating the whole process in T1, CPU hit around 60% (without even using freeze) and audio streamed without a glitch. Reduced to half that once I froze the tracks.
I have no idea why Live 4 is SO very bad in this respect, but I can only use it by bouncing down each track one at a time.
3. Audio recording in Live 4 really doesn't sound very good to me. Again I'm not sure why. But I get artefacts and clipping even when the level meters are well below peaking.
4. Live 4 has no pdc.
5. Live 4 only has 24-bit floating point for audio and can only render at 24-bit. As I master in Audition, which has 32-bit import and processing, it follows that I can get better results using Tracktion, with its 32-bit export facility (with 64-bit coming in T2!)
I agree that Live has better time-stretching, looping tools and I love its MIDI editing, especially "fold" track. I too like the loop paradigm for MIDI editing. And for tracks in this vein I shall continue using Live at present (although I also hope T2 will bring improvements in all these areas
).
However, I am beginning to think that Live 4 has been seriously over-hyped in the press, and that it is a missed opportunity in many ways. To do serious music making I *need* a freeze function and better audio streaming, and I only hope Live 5 (presumably next year) will bring suitable improvements.
For what it's worth, here's why:
1. The audio engine in Live 4 seems to cut out once you reach a CPU load of about 60%, even when you set your latency/buffer settings as high as they will go. Strange for a program that gets such rave reviews, but I know from forum posts that others have found the same problem/curse.
2. Without a FREEZE function, you have to render everything straight to audio.
For example, I just did a track using drum loop plus four MIDI channels, featuring 2x Pro53, 1x FM7 and 1x B4, all fed on a bus through 1x Ambience. In Live 4 the CPU hit 80% + and audio cut out and the program ground to a complete halt.
Repeating the whole process in T1, CPU hit around 60% (without even using freeze) and audio streamed without a glitch. Reduced to half that once I froze the tracks.
I have no idea why Live 4 is SO very bad in this respect, but I can only use it by bouncing down each track one at a time.
3. Audio recording in Live 4 really doesn't sound very good to me. Again I'm not sure why. But I get artefacts and clipping even when the level meters are well below peaking.
4. Live 4 has no pdc.
5. Live 4 only has 24-bit floating point for audio and can only render at 24-bit. As I master in Audition, which has 32-bit import and processing, it follows that I can get better results using Tracktion, with its 32-bit export facility (with 64-bit coming in T2!)
I agree that Live has better time-stretching, looping tools and I love its MIDI editing, especially "fold" track. I too like the loop paradigm for MIDI editing. And for tracks in this vein I shall continue using Live at present (although I also hope T2 will bring improvements in all these areas
).However, I am beginning to think that Live 4 has been seriously over-hyped in the press, and that it is a missed opportunity in many ways. To do serious music making I *need* a freeze function and better audio streaming, and I only hope Live 5 (presumably next year) will bring suitable improvements.
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- KVRAF
- 37441 posts since 14 Sep, 2002 from In teh net
I don't understand why people compare Tracktion and Ableton so much - is it because they are both flat because apart from that minor feature they seem very different. Tracktion for me is the most intuitive linear host going. I tried a demo of Ableton a few times but it just didn't make much sense to me musically - I guess I don't relate to this "clip assembling" approach to music making, largely as I rarely use beats anyway - to me it was unintuitive and clunky and very non linear. Looks pretty though 
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original flipper original flipper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8999
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex
HI
FWIW I feel like on 'hold' as far as host's go, I stopped using Logic about 6 months ago, tried Orion (find it a bit flaky), SXV3 (people say Logic is hard to grasp but Cubase are on another planet IMO), XT (MMmm) .... Live4 (just doesn't work for me), Samplitude V8 (will it ever be released?).
I go back to host's from time to time and admit that Tracktion is the one that has always made me think ... 'if they could do something with the midi roll?' ... I look foward to V2 in the hope that perhaps this aspect could be more to my liking, along with solid stability (I haven't tested it enough to discern how stable it is, but as soon as Vsti's enter the equation this becomes a bit variable with EVERY host) perhaps it might be my salvation!
PS; I think a host is simply that, I compare them as tools not for any other reason.
Flipper.
FWIW I feel like on 'hold' as far as host's go, I stopped using Logic about 6 months ago, tried Orion (find it a bit flaky), SXV3 (people say Logic is hard to grasp but Cubase are on another planet IMO), XT (MMmm) .... Live4 (just doesn't work for me), Samplitude V8 (will it ever be released?).
I go back to host's from time to time and admit that Tracktion is the one that has always made me think ... 'if they could do something with the midi roll?' ... I look foward to V2 in the hope that perhaps this aspect could be more to my liking, along with solid stability (I haven't tested it enough to discern how stable it is, but as soon as Vsti's enter the equation this becomes a bit variable with EVERY host) perhaps it might be my salvation!
PS; I think a host is simply that, I compare them as tools not for any other reason.
Flipper.