Kraftur by Soundtheory, a multi band clipper

[Funky40]

I think the Soundtheory one is more ridiculous,you have to pay a subscription basically for a second hand license. That’s crazy.

I interpret it like you pay the amount up front, but it’s based on the number of years you owned the product.

hmm, good point ! .....guess you are right.

[Double Tap]

OP The company is Sound Theory. Gullfoss is a product.

Good spot!

[ChanceB]

I think the Soundtheory one is more ridiculous,you have to pay a subscription basically for a second hand license. That’s crazy.

I interpret it like you pay the amount up front, but it’s based on the number of years you owned the product.

hmm, good point ! .....guess you are right.

That makes more sense.

[woodsdenis]

If you transfer the current owner pays the fee not the person that they transfer too. The fee is calculated "A base fee of $10 is charged for effecting a transfer. Additionally, a transfer fee of 10% of the RRP of the software product will be charged per year of completed ownership for the first 4 years. After that it's 5% of the RRP. It is important that you notify support directly about any transfer."

Maybe we could discuss the actual sound/merits of this plugin ?

[Ploki]

I don't understand this transfer policy tbh + add 25$ for iLok transfer?

Can't comment the sound - i downloaded the demo but frankly it has to blow me a-f**king-way with that transfer policy.

[atell]

I think at this point it would be fair to offer some context for Soundtheory’s license transfer policy. The current policy is our attempt at solving a problem with the software industry, and this problem is that we believe that paying customers are treated very unfairly. Allow me to explain:

Currently, if you buy software you are facing three options.

1. You pay for a subscription and can use the software while you are paying.

2. You pay for a maintenance period. You get updates and support as long as you pay and can keep using the software if you stop paying. This is usually limited, often artificially, by lack of support for OS updates. Restarting the maintenance after a break also usually comes with a penalty fee.

3. You pay for updates when they come out. The price for the update depends on the version you’re updating from. The fees are up to the discretion of the software vendor and may change. They usually add a few features and improvements, but they also make sure to only give out compatibility and bug fixes with paid updates. Sometimes you receive a free hot fix, but you can expect to pay for updates regularly.

These models exist to make sure that the ongoing cost of software development, maintenance, support and infrastructure are covered. But the conditions also force the customer into a dependent relationship. He has to pay to keep using the software, even if he uses it infrequently. The total cost of maintaining the license is hard to estimate and usually even unpredictable. As a result, the investment of the user in the software product is exceeding the investment of the software company into the user, by far.

We decided that we did not want to put our customers in such a situation. Instead, we are aiming at a much more symmetric relationship that is based on mutual trust and investment. The user invests in us, we invest in the user. What this means specifically is, that if you buy our software you pay a fixed price up front. And then you pay never again to keep using it. We will deliver updates and support for as long as the software is relevant and maintenance is feasible.

We’ve demonstrated this policy with Gullfoss. Since we’ve released it in 2018, we’ve promptly fixed every single issue with free updates, kept improving the plugin and even added two more plugins to the same product. So that you now have three much better editions of Gullfoss. We’ve also made sure all OS updates during that time went smooth and that Gullfoss was ready from day one. All for free. For all our customers. We did not even increase the price of the product.

Now, if you bought Gullfoss for our $99 introductory offer, you could now sell it for $199, because your license is just as good as a new license bought from us. So you would have used Gullfoss for six full years, received all the maintenance and would even have gained up to $100 by selling it. That doesn’t sound quite fair, neither to us developers nor to those customers who in fact payed for your time spent with the plugin and the money you made from it by selling it for more than you paid.

The problem is, more or less obviously, that a software license does not have any natural loss of value, unless you force users to pay for updates regularly. Since we don’t do that, we need to somehow charge users for the time they’ve used the plugin. Because we don’t want a subscription or maintenance contract the only way is to charge when the user wants to cash in on the license: So we had to introduce transfer fees to avoid any of the other undesirable license models described above and protect both our interests and the interests of those customers who have invested in our product.

So the deal is simple. If you don’t sell your license you pay upfront once and we will take care of you. If you want to sell your license, you pay a reasonable fee that prevents you from using the license transfer as an endless trial or even make a profit from selling a license that you purchased at a discount.

If you look at the structure of the transfer fees, we think that they are more than reasonable. The base fee of $10 reflects our own cost of moving the license to a new owner. We don’t make any money with it. It’s worth noting that you will NOT have to pay the $25 PACE license transfer fee, as we cover that for you. If you held the license for less than a year, that’s all there is. After the first year, we charge 10% of the plugin resale value at the time of purchase per year until you reach 40% and then we keep increasing it in steps of 5%. That means it takes 16 years for the license to be entirely devalued. At this point you have received 16 years of maintenance.

If you ever want to transfer the license, we also offer a buy-back or a partial refund with the same devaluation. And if you name us a charity, we will even make sure to donate the transfer fee in your name if that is possible with reasonable effort.

Finally, all these rules are guidelines. We look at each case individually and may waive the fees entirely, depending on how we are approached and what the context is.


If you still feel that this is a rip-off, then please take the time to explain what we could do better while running a business. We are trying to be the best company for our customers.

So with Kraftur you can expect free updates and improvements just like with Gullfoss. I cannot guarantee that we will be adding free new editions to it, as this depends on where the development takes us. But we will increase the value and give back to all the customers who invested in us.

Finally, the 25 year license limit is a nonsensical consequence of European law. If we hand out perpetual licenses, we would have to take one of the established models that we think are unfair towards the customer. If you ever come to the point when you hold a license that exceeds this 25 year limit and the product is still usable, then we will make sure that there is a pain-free path forward that will allow you to keep using the product. But let’s be realistic, 25 years of software support is an eternity.

So, I hope I could convince you that we’re not the company from hell that wants to rip everyone off, but much rather are trying to do precisely the opposite.

Thanks for listening,

Andreas

[psy dive]

Sounds fair to me!

Now, could we hear some examples? =)

[TBlake]

Just more ridiculous spin from this clown attempting to justify the most anti-consumer licensing ever. I received an NFR license because I bought Gullfoss on sale. It's probably the same if you buy this new one on intro pricing. I don't care enough to even look into it. I'll never buy another product from this deceptive company.

[atell]

Just more ridiculous spin from this clown attempting to justify the most anti-consumer licensing ever. I received an NFR license because I bought Gullfoss on sale. I'll never buy another one of your products.

The license is merely marked as NFR in the PACE license manager so that you cannot initiate transfers from there. The reason for that is that PACE charges $25 for just clicking that button and won't even inform us of any license transfer requests. So to prevent you from spending an extra $25 and to stop us from checking for pending transfer requests with PACE all the time, we've forced everyone to go through our support form to transfer licenses. It's on our website. Or you could have asked us.

The Clown

[pekbro]

Pretty neat, I like it

[bmanic]

I think at this point it would be fair to offer some context for Soundtheory’s license transfer policy. The current policy is our attempt at solving a problem with the software industry, and this problem is that we believe that paying customers are treated very unfairly. Allow me to explain:

Currently, if you buy software you are facing three options.

1. You pay for a subscription and can use the software while you are paying.

2. You pay for a maintenance period. You get updates and support as long as you pay and can keep using the software if you stop paying. This is usually limited, often artificially, by lack of support for OS updates. Restarting the maintenance after a break also usually comes with a penalty fee.

3. You pay for updates when they come out. The price for the update depends on the version you’re updating from. The fees are up to the discretion of the software vendor and may change. They usually add a few features and improvements, but they also make sure to only give out compatibility and bug fixes with paid updates. Sometimes you receive a free hot fix, but you can expect to pay for updates regularly.

These models exist to make sure that the ongoing cost of software development, maintenance, support and infrastructure are covered. But the conditions also force the customer into a dependent relationship. He has to pay to keep using the software, even if he uses it infrequently. The total cost of maintaining the license is hard to estimate and usually even unpredictable. As a result, the investment of the user in the software product is exceeding the investment of the software company into the user, by far.

We decided that we did not want to put our customers in such a situation. Instead, we are aiming at a much more symmetric relationship that is based on mutual trust and investment. The user invests in us, we invest in the user. What this means specifically is, that if you buy our software you pay a fixed price up front. And then you pay never again to keep using it. We will deliver updates and support for as long as the software is relevant and maintenance is feasible.

We’ve demonstrated this policy with Gullfoss. Since we’ve released it in 2018, we’ve promptly fixed every single issue with free updates, kept improving the plugin and even added two more plugins to the same product. So that you now have three much better editions of Gullfoss. We’ve also made sure all OS updates during that time went smooth and that Gullfoss was ready from day one. All for free. For all our customers. We did not even increase the price of the product.

Now, if you bought Gullfoss for our $99 introductory offer, you could now sell it for $199, because your license is just as good as a new license bought from us. So you would have used Gullfoss for six full years, received all the maintenance and would even have gained up to $100 by selling it. That doesn’t sound quite fair, neither to us developers nor to those customers who in fact payed for your time spent with the plugin and the money you made from it by selling it for more than you paid.

The problem is, more or less obviously, that a software license does not have any natural loss of value, unless you force users to pay for updates regularly. Since we don’t do that, we need to somehow charge users for the time they’ve used the plugin. Because we don’t want a subscription or maintenance contract the only way is to charge when the user wants to cash in on the license: So we had to introduce transfer fees to avoid any of the other undesirable license models described above and protect both our interests and the interests of those customers who have invested in our product.

So the deal is simple. If you don’t sell your license you pay upfront once and we will take care of you. If you want to sell your license, you pay a reasonable fee that prevents you from using the license transfer as an endless trial or even make a profit from selling a license that you purchased at a discount.

If you look at the structure of the transfer fees, we think that they are more than reasonable. The base fee of $10 reflects our own cost of moving the license to a new owner. We don’t make any money with it. It’s worth noting that you will NOT have to pay the $25 PACE license transfer fee, as we cover that for you. If you held the license for less than a year, that’s all there is. After the first year, we charge 10% of the plugin resale value at the time of purchase per year until you reach 40% and then we keep increasing it in steps of 5%. That means it takes 16 years for the license to be entirely devalued. At this point you have received 16 years of maintenance.

If you ever want to transfer the license, we also offer a buy-back or a partial refund with the same devaluation. And if you name us a charity, we will even make sure to donate the transfer fee in your name if that is possible with reasonable effort.

Finally, all these rules are guidelines. We look at each case individually and may waive the fees entirely, depending on how we are approached and what the context is.


If you still feel that this is a rip-off, then please take the time to explain what we could do better while running a business. We are trying to be the best company for our customers.

So with Kraftur you can expect free updates and improvements just like with Gullfoss. I cannot guarantee that we will be adding free new editions to it, as this depends on where the development takes us. But we will increase the value and give back to all the customers who invested in us.

Finally, the 25 year license limit is a nonsensical consequence of European law. If we hand out perpetual licenses, we would have to take one of the established models that we think are unfair towards the customer. If you ever come to the point when you hold a license that exceeds this 25 year limit and the product is still usable, then we will make sure that there is a pain-free path forward that will allow you to keep using the product. But let’s be realistic, 25 years of software support is an eternity.

So, I hope I could convince you that we’re not the company from hell that wants to rip everyone off, but much rather are trying to do precisely the opposite.

Thanks for listening,

Andreas

Really sorry Andreas but what you are saying sounds like a whole heap of absolute bollocks! Why not be 100% frank and stop using ".. for the customer". Sounds exactly the same as a politician uses ".. think of the children!" when the real reason for making things difficult is for YOUR own benefit. Which is perfectly fine! You may do what you want to do but don't expect not to be criticized (and rightly so). Trying to deflect the critique as some kind of "this must be done, for the customer!!" looks super weird.

There are tons of small development teams who don't have anywhere remotely as crazy license transfer nonsense as you guys have.. and those have been supporting their software exceptionally well. Here are just a few off the top of my head:

FabFilter (yes they are an "established brand" but none the less the core team is just 4 people AFAIK)
Voxengo
U-He
Klanghelm
Tokyo Dawn Labs
DMG Audio (though here the transferred license becomes NFR, not ideal to say the least!)
Oeksound
etc. etc.

There are way too many to list here who are small teams with awesome plugins and exceptional support for older plugins (you are not at all alone in this, neither are you the first nor even exceptional.. your updates to Gullfoss for instance took it's sweet time).


Yes the industry like any other industry is going through a massive change and it is difficult to stay afloat in this market of race to the bottom. However, don't try to make excuses. Everybody is in the same boat. The tried and trusted methods have usually worked nicely for companies to be profitable, even in difficult times. It's usually like this:

1) Have awesome products (you've got this covered)

2) Don't price them stupidly and arrogantly portraying them as "for professionals only". Like in any creative market, the vast majority of buyers are hobbyists.. though you CAN do the "for professionals only" thing of course. Some select few companies are successful doing that but I bet the competition over there is even harder.

3) Don't punish the paying customers with artificially difficult copy protection or other such nonsense. This is where your license transfer policy makes a black mark, though it's not the end of the world as most users tend to keep their licenses.


Anyhow, my point is this: You are projecting some kind of weird "we do it for the customers" bullshit when in fact it's got nothing to do with us. That same rhetoric has been used over and over again and it's complete nonsense and any person with half a brain knows it. Be honest and just say it as it is. You have a silly license transfer policy because you think it'll make you more money (less work). It's really as simple as that, ain't it?



/rant


Now to end on a positive note. Love Gullfoss and will definitely be checking out the demo of Kraftur as it looks really interesting. Keep up the good work on your plugins. Gullfoss is amazing and deserves all the praise it has gotten!

[TBlake]

That is totally disingenuous about the "license is transferrable". Trasferable within a very stupud and expensive transfer policy. Stop trying to obfuscate out of it.

So let me get this straight: You are in fact expecting to use the software for a prolonged time with all the maintenance and free updates and then expect to sell it and maybe even making money if you bought it on a discount?

We do have a very relaxed refund policy. Have you considered that?

The refund policy that you present as "very relaxed" is ridiculously arbitrary and deducts a certain amount based on how long the customer has had it or some similar bullshit. Believe me, if it was at all "relaxed" I would have taken you up on it. Because I want nothing to do with your anti-customer policies.

[atell]

That is totally disingenuous about the "license is transferrable". Trasferable within a very stupud and expensive transfer policy. Stop trying to obfuscate out of it.

So let me get this straight: You are in fact expecting to use the software for a prolonged time with all the maintenance and free updates and then expect to sell it and maybe even making money if you bought it on a discount?

We do have a very relaxed refund policy. Have you considered that?

That's the problem with you. You assume your customers are going to take advantage of you.
I would never have bought anything from company with that paranoid mentality. And it in NO WAY justifies the restrictions you place on customers that NO OTHER company does.

It's not about taking advantage of us. As I've written above, we're ready to donate the transfer fees. How would you feel as a customer knowing that someone else used that same product and sold it without any loss after many years while you did not and therefore funded part of the development that he took advantage of. You'd feel pretty stupid for having done the right thing. It is about fairness and giving customers a sense of value for what they have received.

Explain to me then why these fees are a problem and why they trigger you so much. I don't understand it. I'm THAT stupid.

[bmanic]

That is totally disingenuous about the "license is transferrable". Trasferable within a very stupud and expensive transfer policy. Stop trying to obfuscate out of it.

So let me get this straight: You are in fact expecting to use the software for a prolonged time with all the maintenance and free updates and then expect to sell it and maybe even making money if you bought it on a discount?

We do have a very relaxed refund policy. Have you considered that?

See, this shows your true colors. Like I said above, it's complete bullshit what you wrote about "the customer". Here you are showing why you have the policy. You are really paranoid and fall in the common trap that paranoid people have. You think that everybody is out to rip you off when that couldn't be further from the truth. Yes there ARE bad actors in every industry but just like there are terrorists and murderers/psychopaths in the world, they are NOT the majority. And nothing good ever comes from being paranoid and trying to set boundaries and rules around paranoid thinking.

In this paranoia of yours there also lies some narcissism hidden. You think you are so valuable that surely everybody will try to rip you off? That's not how the world works but if you go at it with this paranoid mentality then don't be surprised when it starts becoming a self fulfilling prophecy.

[TBlake]

Explain to me then why these fees are a problem and why they trigger you so much. I don't understand it. I'm THAT stupid.

because "these fees" are were not apparent when I bought. I'm not looking to make a profit. I just want to be done with your ridiculous mindset. Again NO OTHER COMPANY pulls this shit on their customers.