Kraftur by Soundtheory, a multi band clipper

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:34 pm I'm THAT stupid.
Indeed.

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:34 pm It's not about taking advantage of us. As I've written above, we're ready to donate the transfer fees. How would you feel as a customer knowing that someone else used that same product and sold it without any loss after many years while you did not and therefore funded part of the development that he took advantage of. You'd feel pretty stupid for having done the right thing. It is about fairness and giving customers a sense of value for what they have received.

Explain to me then why these fees are a problem and why they trigger you so much. I don't understand it. I'm THAT stupid.
.. and now you go back to being dishonest. Do you really believe the majority of people think like this?? You do know that there is a very healthy used market for pretty much every commodity on earth?

A person that gets jealous (yes THAT is the correct word for this) because somebody made a buck of profit or got a great deal is living a really sad life. There's a reason why jealousy and envy are considered cardinal sins. It's not helpful nor should it be protected or entertained. Same goes for the opposite (yet somehow distant cousin) called pride.
"Wisdom is wisdom, regardless of the idiot who said it." -an idiot

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- if sale price is 99€, nobody in their right mind will buy a “second hand” license for 199€.
That just doesn’t happen. They’ll go to the vendor and just buy directly

- if you make sales you risk people selling their licenses without losses (i.e buy at 99, sell at 99), that’s why some companies simply don’t do sales.

- as you so eloquently put, plugins dont deteriorate when used. That means that someone selling the license is still the same amount of support because you don’t have 2x as much work or costumers. Frankly, license is a license, and one person uses it at a time.
You would not get that money if the customer didn’t sell - this is extra revenue for you.
You could just bamp the price for 20€ and try selling it like that instead if you dont get enough revenue

You could also implement biometrics if someone in my studio is using it when i’m renting it by that logic
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Unfortuantely I can not recommend this product or any other Sound Theory products. You are best to look for alternatives.

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bmanic wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:24 pm Anyhow, my point is this: You are projecting some kind of weird "we do it for the customers" bullshit when in fact it's got nothing to do with us. That same rhetoric has been used over and over again and it's complete nonsense and any person with half a brain knows it. Be honest and just say it as it is. You have a silly license transfer policy because you think it'll make you more money (less work). It's really as simple as that, ain't it?
:roll:
I am a customer of many other companies, too. I have a serious issue with software that becomes outdated before I open it twice and that costs me money without hardly ever using it. So this incentive of developing a fairer model comes from very deep within me and it IS about the customer because it is the way I want to be treated as a customer.

That's why I offered to donate all transfer fees. We don't want to make money with them. What we want to do is establish a level of fairness that doesn't make loyal customers feel stupid for sticking to their license. If you have a contract where one side, the developer in this case, goes all -in to make sure he delivers the best product with the best support and the other side can simply drop it at any time and get out after having taken advantage of the developer and the other customers investment, then that is not sutainable.

The fees are there so that everyone understands what a fair and respectful relationship must be like. If that's not what the customer wants, he can shop somewhere else. Or suggest how we make it better.

All the companies you've listed do have great support. But they also have paid updates. If that's what the customers want these days instead of only paying when they want the final check for leaving the contract, then I will have to adjust. But I think our model IS fairer.

If we wanted to go the path of least resistance, which you seem to imply we are attempting by sweet talking customers into something that is really just a greedy money making move, we'd have other options. Dishonest marketing strategies with overhyped prices and frequent absurd sales that suck you into a dependency, then yearly updates just to keep your software running and your DAW projects opening. Then building on top of that with new special deals that entangle you more and more with our platform until you can only get out by hitting the reset button. And I don't think anyone every complained about the devaluation of Waves plugins over the years because nobody even tries to sell their licenses. Those are the companies that are ripping you off, and there are plenty of them.

This is our honest attempt at making a difference. I seriously don't understand where the hostility comes from, because we're trying REALLY hard to get it right. The only way I can see someone being pissed with this is if he intended to take advantage of the software developer and the other customers. But if I'm missing a legitimate reason why our licensing scheme is of disadvantage to an honest customer, I'm ready to be educated. As I've also mentioned before, we're looking at every case individually. So if you have a solid argument then you may get entirely different conditions. It certainly won't help if you called us names before.

So, please, let's have a civil discussion. Because we DO care.

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:11 pm
TBlake wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 3:05 pm Just more ridiculous spin from this clown attempting to justify the most anti-consumer licensing ever. I received an NFR license because I bought Gullfoss on sale. I'll never buy another one of your products.
The license is merely marked as NFR in the PACE license manager so that you cannot initiate transfers from there. The reason for that is that PACE charges $25 for just clicking that button and won't even inform us of any license transfer requests. So to prevent you from spending an extra $25 and to stop us from checking for pending transfer requests with PACE all the time, we've forced everyone to go through our support form to transfer licenses. It's on our website. Or you could have asked us.

The Clown
Really?

Well, I did ask and guess what I was told (I have bolded the interesting part):
Hi XXXXX,

Thanks for contacting us! The normal price for Gullfoss is 199USD + tax. Any discounted purchases are automatically marked as NFR. Technically, the lowest possible price for Gullfoss is 99USD + tax and that can be obtained through our academic discount. It looks like you purchased Gullfoss for 85USD (after tax) using the EASTER23 coupon code in addition to the pricing adjustment for Chile.

An NFR license is identical in every way to a normal license except that it is not for resale. Let me know if you need any additional assistance.
NFR license has not been mentioned anywhere during the purchase process, I only found about it after I saw it in iLok and asked your support about it. Disgraceful. I wrote it off as just another piece of junk and moved on.

But your answers in this thread are beyond ridiculous and made me dig up that email.

edit: bolded 2nd interesting part which seems to be invisible to someone
Last edited by midi sentinel on Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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TBlake wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 4:38 pm because "these fees" are were not apparent when I bought. I'm not looking to make a profit. I just want to be done with your ridiculous mindset. Again NO OTHER COMPANY pulls this shit on their customers.
If you can make a point that things were not properly communicated at the time of your purchase then these conditions don't apply to you. The EULA at the time of the purchase is what counts. So if you're right, you don't have any problem at all.

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midi sentinel wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:00 pm Well, I did ask and guess what I was told (I have bolded the interesting part):
Hi XXXXX,

Thanks for contacting us! The normal price for Gullfoss is 199USD + tax. Any discounted purchases are automatically marked as NFR. Technically, the lowest possible price for Gullfoss is 99USD + tax and that can be obtained through our academic discount. It looks like you purchased Gullfoss for 85USD (after tax) using the EASTER23 coupon code in addition to the pricing adjustment for Chile.

An NFR license is identical in every way to a normal license except that it is not for resale. Let me know if you need any additional assistance.
NFR license has not been mentioned anywhere during the purchase process, I only found about it after I saw it in iLok and asked your support about it. Disgraceful. I wrote it off as just another piece of junk and moved on.

But your answers in this thread are beyond ridiculous and made me dig up that email.
I'm sure this is missing some context. Did you ask for a transfer? It seems our support answered your question on a technical basis, by stating what NFR means. You can still transfer the license, but only by going through our support. We mark the licenses as NFRs for technical reasons, and we started doing that with discounted licenses first. The exact terms are in our EULA and the version at the time of your purchase is the relevant one.

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:07 pm
midi sentinel wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:00 pm Well, I did ask and guess what I was told (I have bolded the interesting part):
Hi XXXXX,

Thanks for contacting us! The normal price for Gullfoss is 199USD + tax. Any discounted purchases are automatically marked as NFR. Technically, the lowest possible price for Gullfoss is 99USD + tax and that can be obtained through our academic discount. It looks like you purchased Gullfoss for 85USD (after tax) using the EASTER23 coupon code in addition to the pricing adjustment for Chile.

An NFR license is identical in every way to a normal license except that it is not for resale. Let me know if you need any additional assistance.
NFR license has not been mentioned anywhere during the purchase process, I only found about it after I saw it in iLok and asked your support about it. Disgraceful. I wrote it off as just another piece of junk and moved on.

But your answers in this thread are beyond ridiculous and made me dig up that email.
I'm sure this is missing some context. Did you ask for a transfer? It seems our support answered your question on a technical basis, by stating what NFR means. You can still transfer the license, but only by going through our support. We mark the licenses as NFRs for technical reasons, and we started doing that with discounted licenses first. The exact terms are in our EULA and the version at the time of your purchase is the relevant one.
Your paranoia shows again.

You are ridiculous, you should stop.

That was the answer to ticket I submitted:
I have just purchased Gullfoss from your website and received the iLok key.

I have added it to iLok but the license shows as NFR.

There were no mentions of license being NFR at any point during the purchase so I find this very, very confusing and assume that this is an error.

Thank you for taking care of this.

Best regards,
Do yourself a favor, don't try to misinterpret this and tell me what it is I was asking and what is it they answered.

Just don't answer at all, I absolutely don't care for nonsense that you have to say, keep it for answers to other people. I just wanted to set the record straight.

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I can't say anything else but that your license is transferrable by our policy and that you're also eligible for a refund, as is everybody else. It seems our support has either misunderstood your question or was misinformed. What else do you want to hear?

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I can’t say I’ve ever purchased something where I cared what the license transfer policy is.

It’s a shame that every thread about sound theory products turns into a bitch session about licensing rather than the products. Maybe all those bitching and complaining can go make a different thread and get it all off your chest instead of constantly polluting product threads? Then the developer also can deal with it on that thread and instead talk about their product that is far far far more interesting than licensing.

In the mean time, I found the new plugin to sound good, but am not keen on the distortion aspect and am not sure yet that the saturation is differentiated enough from what I already have. Am happily doing a demo and will happily purchase should it prove out, just like Gullfoss. And I still won’t care what the transfer policy is because I usually assume it’s either not possible or not worth my time for plugins.
Last edited by vitocorleone123 on Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:01 pm If you can make a point that things were not properly communicated at the time of your purchase then these conditions don't apply to you. The EULA at the time of the purchase is what counts. So if you're right, you don't have any problem at all.
My problem is I'm now involved with a draconian company who's terms I don't agree with and who won't refund me without deducting "very relaxed" fees from my refund. You could have done the right thing years ago but you chose not to. Instead you spout nonsense about protecting your customers. I'm a prime example of a customer you're NOT protecting.

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TBlake wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:51 pm
atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:01 pm If you can make a point that things were not properly communicated at the time of your purchase then these conditions don't apply to you. The EULA at the time of the purchase is what counts. So if you're right, you don't have any problem at all.
My problem is I'm now involved with a draconian company who's terms I don't agree with and who won't refund me without deducting "very relaxed" fees from my refund. You could have done the right thing years ago but you chose not to. Instead you spout nonsense about protecting your customers. I'm a prime example of a customer you're NOT protecting.
If you request a full refund because you feel that you have not been informed properly and that you are feeling that you have been taken advantage of, you will get a full refund.

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atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:55 pm If you request a full refund because you feel that you have not been informed properly and that you are feeling that you have been taken advantage of, you will get a full refund.
That's the first bit of a conciliatory response that I've heard from you.
It's a shame it took so long to get to this point. I'll contact you by email.

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TBlake wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 6:03 pm
atell wrote: Mon Jun 17, 2024 5:55 pm If you request a full refund because you feel that you have not been informed properly and that you are feeling that you have been taken advantage of, you will get a full refund.
That's the first bit of a conciliatory response that I've heard from you.
It's a shame it took so long to get to this point. I'll contact you by email.
This has always been our policy and we've communicated it in various threads here and on other forums. And I've mentioned in this very thread several times already that we have a case-by-case policy and offer refunds.

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