Zebra making VST plug scan very long on Windows...?

[golemus]

Hi. I have u-he zebra 2.9.3, windows 11, ableton live 11.x.

I have the feeling that u-he zebra is making VST scan duration very long.

When zebra is disabled VST scan takes like 2-3 secs, when zebra is enabled it can take anything between 9s - 40s (live 9.2.2 was almost 40 sec, 9.3.5 is 23 sec or so).

I think but am not sure that problem is present in other programs as Magic Vegas video editor started very long time when VST plugs were enabled. I disabled VST plugs so I am not absolutely sure which is the cause for Vegas.


Worth noting is that:
- I have only 64-bit VST plugs
- both zebra and dark zebra are installed, in both VST2 and VST3 versions
- VST2 plugs are under C:\Program Files\VstPlugins
- VST3 plugs are under C:\Program Files\Common Files\VST3
- zebra.data resides in different partition under F:\Sample Libraries. There is a windows shortcut link to zebra.data from VST folders.
- first I thought that the shortcut is reason for slow scanning but now I am not sure because when I copy pasted zebra.data from F: to VST plugin folders and moved shortcuts out from VST folder it didn't make it faster.

- behavior is both on Live 11.2.2 and 11.3.5, but on 11.3.5 scanning reduces from 40s to 23s.

Slow scanning is on both computers (desktop with couple of nvme and ssd:s + Thinkpad T490 with 2TB nvme), but much slower on laptop, on desktop it is like 9 secs or so. I have very few plugs (except inside Waves dll has a lot) so IMO it should take max 2-3 secs or so. I think I have also excluded waves as a cause.


How could this be solved (if it is indeed Zebra that is cause)...?

[Viktor [TUC]]

Hi golemus,

could be Windows Defender interfering? Can you try adding your plugins folder to some sort of "exclude" list in Defender and see if that helps?
Otherwise please write to us at support[at]u-he.com and we could take a closer look.

Viktor
u-he team

[mcbpete]

It's Ableton following the .data shortcut folder/symlink in the VST folder and basically looking at every file in there (presets, images for themes etc.) to see if they're an item that can be added to the search database. It's the same problem Blue Cat plugins have - viewtopic.php?t=599300 (and I think also Arturia's V Collection but that might've changed since I last checked a few years ago)

I've an SSD and though Ableton itself boots quickly it'll be about 5-10 minutes before the VST scanning message vanishes if I've added/updated any VST2/VST3s

[golemus]

Hi golemus,

could be Windows Defender interfering? Can you try adding your plugins folder to some sort of "exclude" list in Defender and see if that helps?
Otherwise please write to us at support[at]u-he.com and we could take a closer look.

Viktor
u-he team

I will try that. Is there any other folders than program files/vstplugins and common files/vst3 that would need to be exluced (e.g. zebra.data or the ones under USERNAME/appdata or ones under C:\programdata

[golemus]

I did a test, put Sysinternals Process Monitor to run before pressing "rescan plugins" button in Ableton and stopped it after scan was finished (MS defender was disabled during this test). Scanning took the same 23 seconds and I can confirm from procmon log that scanning of u-he zebra folders is the cause.

Plugin scan of Magix Vegas video editor was also very slow. I didn't research cause but it would be logical that it might also be Zebra.

Now, how many notable plugins in year 2024 save large amount of files under Vst plugins folder or require to have a link there to plugin files? I don't have any other than u-he and Synth 1 (and latter is free plug so you cannot expect it to be always up to date). Most plugs have only DLL file there or VST3 file and the rest somewhere else.

IMO feels maybe a bit that u-he has a bit outdated architecture here that could be slowing down plugin scans?

Would it not make sense to get rid of everything else under VstPlugins or VST3 folders except for Zebra DLL or VST3 file (and the same for other plugs) and let user choose data folder in plugin settings? Data folder could be in default something like C:\USERNAME\Documents\u-he\Zebra.data, but you would have a dialogue in plugin settings where you can modify path of zebra data folder. Would be no need to create anymore folder links.

If majority of plug manufacturers don't put anything else than DLL to plugin folders then there is really not much incentive for DAWs to modify their scanning algorithsm.


I will soon also put the procmon log here or to u-he support.

[golemus]

maybe zebra.data was already under Documents? but anyway the need to have a link under plugins folder might be causing trouble?

[tasmaniandevil]

As mcbpete already pointed out, the slow scan is caused by Ableton Live needlessly following shortcut links inside the VST plugin folder.
It follows the Zebra2.data shortcut to its original location and then scans all the files in there.

[golemus]

As mcbpete already pointed out, the slow scan is caused by Ableton Live needlessly following shortcut links inside the VST plugin folder.
It follows the Zebra2.data shortcut to its original location and then scans all the files in there.

Does it not scan all files in Zebra2.data folder if it is located under VST3 or VstPlugins folder?

[tasmaniandevil]

Does it not scan all files in Zebra2.data folder if it is located under VST3 or VstPlugins folder?

I would assume it would scan them in this case as well, as would most hosts.
But there is no reason why it should follow the shortcut link. That's exactly the reason for its existence, to keep all those files outside of the actual plugin folders.

[Hanz Meyzer]

I think it might be best practise not to rely on any symbolic link inside the vst dirs at all. Instead you could place the symlink into the default zebra user dir location, which then is required to exist on every installation.

As I understand it, a lot of plugin scanners actually will scan anything they will find inside the plugin dirs. Ableton might not even realize that it is following a symlink, due to library usage or so. Renoise even scans image files and what not.

Surely most plug scanners could be heavily improved, drastically reducing required disk access, like on macos:

- Only scan Info.plist, if it contains the binary path, then scan that. Skip everything else. Done.

On Windows:

- Exclude a lot of file endings

But vst vendors simply could avoid placing anything except the plugin file/dir itself into those dirs. Just my two cents

[Urs]

Developers need to write extra code to follow a windows shortcut.

I guess they have their reasons, but so do we. Apparently a lot of people like what we do because it gives them portability (and fast scans, usually). Therefore I'd be reluctant to change anything from our side just yet.

What I'd be more concerned about is the length of the scan. We scan all our files, too, and it takes a split second. Seems like they are investigating files a little deeper even if those definitely can not be a plug-in (e.g. a .png file or a preset file). Doesn't make sense to me, I'll inquire with them as to why they do that.

[mcbpete]

Doesn't make sense to me, I'll inquire with them as to why they do that.

Hopefully they'll give a developer a bit more attention that a user as I didn't get much of a response when I reported it a while back. As I said above it happens with Blue Cat plugins as well (all the UI elements get scanned of which there are 1000s - nearly 37,000 in fact for me when checked last year)

Has also been reported on Ableton's forums too (specifically with the mention of u-he and Bluecat plugins) - https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?t=244754

[golemus]

What I'd be more concerned about is the length of the scan. We scan all our files, too, and it takes a split second. Seems like they are investigating files a little deeper even if those definitely can not be a plug-in (e.g. a .png file or a preset file). Doesn't make sense to me, I'll inquire with them as to why they do that.

I did some more tests.

zebra.data directly under VST3
- MAGIX 21 scans it through in about 1.5 seconds

zebra.data as windows shortcut link
- MAGIC 21 does not follow the link so scanning through zebra is pretty instant


Anyway Ableton Live does follow through .lnk file. I suspect that in some configuration scanning .lnk files with Ableton has some bug and can be maybe made a bit faster.

But even if the whole zebra.data is under vstplugins folder the scan is still to my experimentation seconds.

If you could provide this info for Ableton it would be cool if they could improve speed of scanning through .lnk files or other links (symbolic, hard link, junction?). Hearing that from you will probably be much more efficient than if I'd do a bug report.

Anyway IMO the only convenient long term solution would be to modify zebra (and other plugs?) architecture so that instead of need to have zebra.data under plugins, its path could be defined inside the plugin. E.g. in the same menu where are "Visit u-he.com", "User Guide", ..., "Install Soundset..." options there could be a new option "Change zebra.data folder path". Optimally this would have to be done only once so that the setting updates to both VST3, VST2 and maybe other plugin versions. In current state of things you have to setup VST2 and VST3 zebra.data links separately which makes no sense to me. Except in very exceptional scenarios where you would want to have different set of sounds/settings for VST2 and VST3 versions (which is probably very rare user case).

Ps. here is link to the Process Monitor log that I mentioned if it is useful in any way (it is 500MB and I'll remove it maybe in 1-2 weeks:

https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqd47Hf8tOaahf4lub6 ... w?e=4Pboq0

[tasmaniandevil]

One more reason why the plugin scan is often awfully slow in Ableton Live is Windows Defender. I already tried to exclude all relevant folders from Windows Defender protection, yet it still runs in the background and seemingly checks every file Live scans.
Windows Defender can slow down any kind of scan (including our own preset scan) extremely.

[golemus]

One more reason why the plugin scan is often awfully slow in Ableton Live is Windows Defender.

Yes this is good to know and it seems to have its effect but even when it is disabled the slowdown is there.

I have done already ages ago a powershell script which disables defender and usually run it when doing serious work with Ableton.



Btw.. a bit offtopic it is unbelievably hard to make the script work, I managed to do it in 2 computers but on third it does not work. I am missing a little bit other antivirus programs which had right click context menu in icon to disable, but I guess with current state of budget I have to tolerate Defender and its annoyances for at least 1-2 years =D