Anyone using SunVox?

[eLawnMust]

Clarified yet nothing in what I posted was about gentlecockdivider, certainly opinions vary & since you are an avid use you are gonna vote for renoise, I don't vote for anything I just make comparisons...

[Logickin]

I also really dislike the overall workflow of sunvox , the fonts of the pattern editor , the resizing of the windows etc..

Renoise imho is a lot more user friendly, the great pattern /insrument, audio editor , the inclusion of the fabulous cdp lua tool for offline stellar dsp goodies etc..

This is because you have get used to the workflow of Renoise.

UX wise, Renoise is... not really the best I have ever encountered. For example, mouse scroll specifically move two lines instead of one which I have mentioned before in the Renoise Forum where two line per scroll is a very awkward design choice which neither feels like a fine nor a fast scroll, ending up tapping the keyboard more than usual. Besides, I am not sure why they have set a weird backspace behavior as default which it behaves like the "delete" button. They have automation, but I am not a fan of automation located at the bottom of the windows, horizontally. I am not sure if that is the limitation of Renoise though. (and there more more big and small UX problems for my use case resulting in ending up not using Renoise)

In SunVox, I don't encounter these UX issues, and I have no problem transferring my knowledge and workflow to Furnace, and even FL studio, but I feel a lot of struggle on Renoise in particular because of the problems I have mentioned above, so I doubt if Renoise is really more user friendly. You may argue that I can change the shortcut in Renoise, but that menu is tiny and filling full of commands that might or might not conflict with other keys, and I have a lot of hard time on configure these shortcuts without causing chain of conflicts.

Is Renoise pattern editor really better than SunVox? I doubt, and so is the vice versa because they both have something I like and don't. However, I don't like how Renoise still stick with a very old tracker pattern indexing system which makes writing pattern unnecessarily tedious especially if the instrument requires pre-delay or if you want to have another pattern that have minor variations that come from previous patterns. In SunVox, the timeline works like linear daws, so you can have any pattern in any length played in any position.

The point is, It is not about which tracker is better, but as a SunVox user perspective, I see the opposite, so I guess this is more about we have get used to the quirks of our preferred software rather than they have objectively better workflow.

To each their own , been using renoise for 2 decades and never missed a piano roll .

Just curious, what kind of genre you make? This is because the genre type also affects the workflow. If you work on things like breakcore or anything that is more rhythmic, you don't really need a piano roll, at all; however, since I usually work on more melodic genres with a lot of running passages, although I am perfectly fine without using piano roll which I have been doing that in decade, and I found tracker is more efficient on sequencing and editing, sometimes, a little visual clues on a tightly packed running passage written in triplet is a boon.

[Logickin]

[Deleted, Accidentally duplicated the reply]

[eLawnMust]

As usual Logickin gives some of the best points & I should say that I am hearing much better music these days coming from SunVox rather than Renoise...

I never said Renoise is BAD but there are some issues as far as design & features... I would rather go with Madtracker as you can import modules then convert to Madtracker format every channel will have it's own track what a boon...

Renoise would have been wise to study other trackers features with an open eye I think Mueller's eyes have blinders on...

Plus there should be an Arguru Memorial Page there at Renoise as they took Arguru's open source NoiseTrekker 2 to start Noisetrekker 3 which became Renoise i don't give a shit if it 'ain't the same no more' it is how Renoise got started AT ALL & neither TakTik nor Phazze woulda fleshed out from scratch it's about respect... More than likely Arguru's decision to open source NoiseTrekker2 was more that Propellerhead was hounding him because they thought he had 'stolen' rebirth code, evidently they thought the 303's were 'that close'... By open sourcing he then proved it was NOT stolen..

[Logickin]

I never said Renoise is BAD but there are some issues as far as design & features...

Yeah, I agree on this one, and this is huge for Renoise.

I would say Renoise is more a bit Sad rather than being Bad because it is not even remotely close to be a bad Software; in fact, I do like some of their features, so it sits still in my laptop, but similar to some of my previous comments in other threads, I am not sure why Renoise always has 1 step missing from being epic, for example:

- It has VST support, but the note fx doesn't support MPE.
- It has Delay Compensation, but for some reasons, it arbitrarily capped at 100 ms which is not useful for some of the sample libraries.
- It has effect rack for each instruments, but they are monophonic, so you can't cleanly distort each voice of the synth. (SunVox can do that because you can load custom effect inside samplers, and each voice have its own effect instance; otherwise, this trick wouldn't work)
- It has a cool sample editor, but you can't have stack and round robin sample at the same instrument instance.
- I love their vst sampling feature, but I am not sure why the loop point in the loop sampling mode has to be in the dead center, but most of the time, the transition between transient and sustain are not always at the middle: we can have a very short transient and long cycles of sustains and vice versa; as a result, I had to manually set the loop point instead.
- It has a cool phrase editor for each instruments, but sadly, it doesn't support midi cc output, missed an opportunity to change articulations by switching the phrase.
- Their sibling product, Redux? Suffers the same problem. Midi Out has been a hot suggestion in the forum, but we are yet to see that happens.
- It has scripting, but we can't create instrument plugin playing in real time other than sample it.

... and the list goes on...

If they can solve either two of these problems, they will improve Renoise by a huge margin.

Renoise would have been wise to study other trackers features with an open eye I think Mueller's eyes have blinders on...

I am not sure if that makes sense:

I think the problem is how they target their product. If Renoise was maintained as an old school style tracker like milky or impulse, or they maximized the backward compatibility like OpenMpt, or they maximized the portability like SunVox, it would be a perfect product. TakTik decided to pick the "professional" route for Renoise, which is not a problem at all because I believe Music Tracker is as competent as linear daw if it is done right; however, I don't know, Renoise is like stuck at the awkward position which it based on a lot of legacy features but not entirely compatible with other trackers, which I heard someone told me on the discord group about his frustration on Renoise due to the bad support on XM format, but at the same time, it isn't maintained well enough for the "professional" aspect, considering all the "short by one" features and UX problems I have mentioned previously.

I know this will be one of the most controversial opinions to Renoise, so I wanna see how others think and I wish to see someone proving me wrong with some good examples and stories for Renoise.

[gentleclockdivider]

Plus there should be an Arguru Memorial Page there at Renoise as they took Arguru's open source NoiseTrekker 2 to start Noisetrekker 3 which became Renoise i don't give a shit if it 'ain't the same no more' it is how Renoise got started AT ALL & neither TakTik nor Phazze woulda fleshed out from scratch it's about respect... More than likely Arguru's decision to open source NoiseTrekker2 was more that Propellerhead was hounding him because they thought he had 'stolen' rebirth code, evidently they thought the 303's were 'that close'... By open sourcing he then proved it was NOT stolen..

It's no secret that renoise is based on "tracker by no name" by arguru , it's on the about page since day one , everybody knows that
And why do you think there is any absence of respect ??


Unlike another company who still sells software made by arguru and charges money for open source projects

[gentleclockdivider]

I never said Renoise is BAD but there are some issues as far as design & features...

Yeah, I agree on this one, and this is huge for Renoise.

I would say Renoise is more a bit Sad rather than being Bad because it is not even remotely close to be a bad Software; in fact, I do like some of their features, so it sits still in my laptop, but similar to some of my previous comments in other threads, I am not sure why Renoise always has 1 step missing from being epic, for example:

- It has VST support, but the note fx doesn't support MPE.
- It has Delay Compensation, but for some reasons, it arbitrarily capped at 100 ms which is not useful for some of the sample libraries.
- It has effect rack for each instruments, but they are monophonic, so you can't cleanly distort each voice of the synth. (SunVox can do that because you can load custom effect inside samplers, and each voice have its own effect instance; otherwise, this trick wouldn't work)
- It has a cool sample editor, but you can't have stack and round robin sample at the same instrument instance.
- I love their vst sampling feature, but I am not sure why the loop point in the loop sampling mode has to be in the dead center, but most of the time, the transition between transient and sustain are not always at the middle: we can have a very short transient and long cycles of sustains and vice versa; as a result, I had to manually set the loop point instead.
- It has a cool phrase editor for each instruments, but sadly, it doesn't support midi cc output, missed an opportunity to change articulations by switching the phrase.
- Their sibling product, Redux? Suffers the same problem. Midi Out has been a hot suggestion in the forum, but we are yet to see that happens.
- It has scripting, but we can't create instrument plugin playing in real time other than sample it.

... and the list goes on...

If they can solve either two of these problems, they will improve Renoise by a huge margin.

Renoise would have been wise to study other trackers features with an open eye I think Mueller's eyes have blinders on...

I am not sure if that makes sense:

I think the problem is how they target their product. If Renoise was maintained as an old school style tracker like milky or impulse, or they maximized the backward compatibility like OpenMpt, or they maximized the portability like SunVox, it would be a perfect product. TakTik decided to pick the "professional" route for Renoise, which is not a problem at all because I believe Music Tracker is as competent as linear daw if it is done right; however, I don't know, Renoise is like stuck at the awkward position which it based on a lot of legacy features but not entirely compatible with other trackers, which I heard someone told me on the discord group about his frustration on Renoise due to the bad support on XM format, but at the same time, it isn't maintained well enough for the "professional" aspect, considering all the "short by one" features and UX problems I have mentioned previously.

I know this will be one of the most controversial opinions to Renoise, so I wanna see how others think and I wish to see someone proving me wrong with some good examples and stories for Renoise.

The instrument editor could be better , but there is distortion per voice
Either by using the drive in the filters , or the two dist.shpes

But yes , there is certainly room for improvement , true parallel filtering without copying samples for example .
That being said , I have revisited some old patches made purely with the instrument editor and they sound effin great .
There are lot's of trick you can use , like using a dc sample ( essentially silence at +1 ) to trigger ringmod filter ( polyphonically ) .
Or use unipolar waveform ( positive side only ) as a windowing function

, then use the polyphonic AM sine for morlet wavelets etc

[theorize]

I like Renoise too, especially for sound design projects, it makes the perfect container for a project making samples! All of it is kept nice and neat, and that sample editor is amazing! That’s the main thing I wish was better in SunVox, but I’m not complaining… my favorite part of SunVox is really how complicated you can get when making instruments… it’s almost like having a copy of Synthedit inside a tracker, it’s kind of like the Kontakt of trackers, I haven’t figured out if you can do keyswitching yet, i’m planning on diving into that pretty soon. I won’t be tracking any music anytime soon though, I just got an MPC so I’ll be using that for a while. I’m lying, I have a renoise project i started a couple weeks ago when I found out about charlatan 3, but I’ll be using the MPC most of the time. I’ll track some stuff in sunvox when i finsish the drum synths I’m working on… I think the license agreement on PunchBox(D16) is too restrictive so I’m making my own in SunVox and doing one for for snares as well, and I’ll let people actually use my samples. hell! I’m probably going to give it away for free, I’ve thought about starting a patreon gumroad for my samples, maybe I’d put them there, but honestly I think that’s useless sunvox is so niche i’ll probably just put it up in the forums, lol it’ll probably be the only module there over a megabyte lol I don’t know what the upload limitation is but I’m sure I’ll be way, way past it. Anyway this is a long way off it’s going to take time to get all the samples for it I just now started making them maybe a week ago and I’ve got so many other things I’m working on so it’ll just be something I add to over time once I get the framework up. I’ve got a good start on that. But anyway that’s my whole point about SunVox, I don’t know of many other softwares where you can do something similar and it’s just sitting there built into a tracker. Badass. And wow i didn’t know that about buze… I should give it another look sometime it’s been a really long time since I’ve checked it out… wasn’t that something that came out of buzz? or am i just getting my wires crossed?

And WHAT! I didn’t think I’d ever hear anyone bing up AXS ever again, that was a badass tracker. I always wondered why they stopped developing it. Especially for it’s time it had some amazing capabilities, so much control over the synth in the patterns, I can only imagine what it would have become if they kept going. I didn’t know people were still using it… you got a source for modules besides the few that have been around since the 90’s? I’d give them all a listen. I always thought it’s synth sounded quite good too, great for big beat type of stuff or trance. Not sure about house but I’m guessing it was great for that too. I just didn’t like the pattern editor it was pretty easy to get lost with that small window, I would have like to see a separate page for it, like in klystrack where the whole screen would be the pattern editor if you chose the right page. Honestly if it was like that I would have tracked some tunes in it, when I sat down to track in it I would easily lose the feel for the pattern and have to search for my place too often, there’s just too much available now but back in the day I would have had no choice and i’m guessing it wouldn’t have bothered me very much.

I’m a little embarrased to admit I’ve never once thought about doing per voice distortion, I guess because I’m usually using it on monophonic stuff, but cool, that’s something I’ll definitely explore, thanks!

And yes, I also wish there there were some things different about Renoise, details that I’d like to see fleshed out, but I’m really happy that it exists, you gotta admit tracking would be much more obscure than it is now without it. And I for one, LOVE the interface! It’s very nice to look at, if openMPT was anything like it I’d spend a lot more time in it but i’ll probably only ever use it if I want to mix samples with OPL, I wish every computer still had an FM synth built in, imagine how badass it would be now if they never stopped. The only thing that truly pisses me off about renoise is that they pretty much gave the finger to the demoscene. I don’t know if Tenoise would even exist if the demoscene never happened, I think it would just be the right thing to do to throw them a bone. Why there’s no replay library type of thing for it is beyond me, at least for the sampler, of course you’d have to leave out the VST stuff. But that doesn’t affect me really I don’t make demos but i circle around the scene sometimes. The thing that affects me is sending midi to vst effects is such a pain in the ass I don’t even want to do it, I understand it’s more flexible, but maybe just have the option to just pass the midi from the track to it.

Anyway, good stuff here, thanks for sounding off everyone, it’s good to know it’s not so obscure that no one really knows about it here.

And it’s good to see disagreements getting hammered out here in a civil way. Wow KVR has really come a long way.

[theorize]

Yeah, it's being updated... Protrekkr is up to 2.7.0... I found a problem with it but Franck fixed it within 24 hrs (it would not create instruments for itself that would play)... That was a month or so ago...

Didn't know the Synth was busted I guess because I just use it for background sounds like the 'wow-wow' in this WIP-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-wanin ... -iteration

Used both 303s in that though, one for riffing the other is dedicated bassline...

Franck did fix the 'off' command for the 303s it now 'works' I used to have to just pick pattern 'A0' to switch to since there's no such pattern the 303 just 'stopped'...

Also use AXS have a thread on that over there too... nearing 825,000 views so there's interest from somewhere, mars, jupiter...who knows...

https://warmplace.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6350

I like your tune btw. Yah it’s great for a lot of sounds, I just wish I could use it for more stuff like that. I need to check on it’s new developments, I wish I would have found it I did a search not long ago to check up on it. Have you ever used PADSynth? I developed a method on Protrekkr I’ve carried with me ever since using padsynth samples, it’s a really good way to get the kind of sounds I was looking for and so much more out of it’s synthesizer. If you can get your hands on an AWE64gold you can have the tracker experience using actual analog filters and a couple effects but it’s on dos and it’s a pain to get all the pieces together but if you already have the stuff or acces to it maybe it’s worth a look. I haven’t done much with it but I have played with vienna and some pretty sick stuff can be done with that, and I like the stuff I have heard in it. It has a cool interfave I thought, def took some stuff from impulse but idk I liked it. it has the chorus and reverb too that’s a welcome addition for trackers back then. gotta put a blank sample at the beginning of every sample you feed it. I could never get the tracker to actually sample though that would be sick. I’d like to get a machine to put my card in again.There’s some people taking about it here if you’re interested. https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=75623

[eLawnMust]

Yeah, it's being updated... Protrekkr is up to 2.7.0... I found a problem with it but Franck fixed it within 24 hrs (it would not create instruments for itself that would play)... That was a month or so ago...

Didn't know the Synth was busted I guess because I just use it for background sounds like the 'wow-wow' in this WIP-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-wanin ... -iteration

Used both 303s in that though, one for riffing the other is dedicated bassline...

Franck did fix the 'off' command for the 303s it now 'works' I used to have to just pick pattern 'A0' to switch to since there's no such pattern the 303 just 'stopped'...

Also use AXS have a thread on that over there too... nearing 825,000 views so there's interest from somewhere, mars, jupiter...who knows...

https://warmplace.ru/forum/viewtopic.php?t=6350

I like your tune btw. Yah it’s great for a lot of sounds, I just wish I could use it for more stuff like that. I need to check on it’s new developments, I wish I would have found it I did a search not long ago to check up on it. Have you ever used PADSynth? I developed a method on Protrekkr I’ve carried with me ever since using padsynth samples, it’s a really good way to get the kind of sounds I was looking for and so much more out of it’s synthesizer. If you can get your hands on an AWE64gold you can have the tracker experience using actual analog filters and a couple effects but it’s on dos and it’s a pain to get all the pieces together but if you already have the stuff or acces to it maybe it’s worth a look. I haven’t done much with it but I have played with vienna and some pretty sick stuff can be done with that, and I like the stuff I have heard in it. It has a cool interfave I thought, def took some stuff from impulse but idk I liked it. it has the chorus and reverb too that’s a welcome addition for trackers back then. gotta put a blank sample at the beginning of every sample you feed it. I could never get the tracker to actually sample though that would be sick. I’d like to get a machine to put my card in again.There’s some people taking about it here if you’re interested. https://www.vogons.org/viewtopic.php?t=75623

Thanx... Never used PADSynth or the other... If I get the need for deep sounds I use Hourglass or Cecilia, pretty much can make any sound a synth can & possibly more & with samples...

HourGlass can also have curves drawn for VST params of plugs you bring in as well flowing over the sample-





Currently making some wild samples for Samplisizer...

The last version made of HourGlass is up on Softpedia>>>