File-per-take not optional?

[jens]

After years just of basically toying around with it now and then (to inform myself about its development progress), I started to use Tracktion again for real and thus did some recording -
and to my shock and horror even I had to find out that Tracktion creates a file for each take, so then slip-editing is basically completely disfunctional (that's how I realized it's file-per-take)
and I seem to remember this originally not being the case - so I looked around to try and find a setting for it but didn't... am I missing something? Or is this really the way it is?

[pough]

You don't seem to be saying what you want it to do instead of creating a file for each take. I'm not at my computer right now but I think in the audio settings you might be able to overwrite for each take. If what you want is comping, you can record multiple takes as a single comp in loop mode. Also, multiple individual files can be turned into a comp.

I'm reasonably certain I'm remembering correctly, but you can try those things or I can double-check later.

[pough]

I just checked some things. If you have the audio input selected, you can choose a Record Mode. The first (default) is "Overlay newly recorded clips onto edit." The second is "Replace old clips in edit with new ones." The last one is excellent for pranks if you know someone else who uses Waveform and you happen to be visiting them: "Don't make recordings from this device." Select that one when they're not looking and watch them go crazy.

A few notes for using the replace method:

1) This is not destructive. The old audio clips do not get deleted and if some part remains in the edit it will be shortened and can be re-lengthened afterwards.

2) You will still hear the previous take when recording unless you change this setting:
Settings -> Advanced -> Audio Engine -> Mute track contents whilst recording

I don't know how that setting affects crossfades. Don't both clips need to be heard for crossfades to work? I should check that out...

[jens]

You don't seem to be saying what you want it to do instead of creating a file for each take.

I meant one continous file for the whole recording, as most DAWs do it these days... i.e. the first and the last take are all just regions from the same single file - that way you can slip-edit takes past its boundaries and also resize the clip start/end to increase its length. If it's all individual files you can't - which is a problem of course.

[jens]

I just checked some things. If you have the audio input selected, you can choose a Record Mode. The first (default) is "Overlay newly recorded clips onto edit." The second is "Replace old clips in edit with new ones." The last one is excellent for pranks if you know someone else who uses Waveform and you happen to be visiting them: "Don't make recordings from this device." Select that one when they're not looking and watch them go crazy.

This doesn't affect the way recorded files are written onto the HD. (It does however affect the way they are named.)


Anyway, this is really a shame - it's 2024 and all I want to do is record some simple audio-takes and yet I run into all kinds of weird issues left and right with any number of DAWs (all past version 10) .

[talby]

I meant one continous file for the whole recording, as most DAWs do it these days... i.e. the first and the last take are all just regions from the same single file - that way you can slip-edit takes past its boundaries and also resize the clip start/end to increase its length. If it's all individual files you can't - which is a problem of course.

I try to imagine what you are speaking about. Sorry, I really do not get the idea. Maybe, could you reference to a video where this is shown, so that I could better understand what your question is about?

[jens]

I meant one continous file for the whole recording, as most DAWs do it these days... i.e. the first and the last take are all just regions from the same single file - that way you can slip-edit takes past its boundaries and also resize the clip start/end to increase its length. If it's all individual files you can't - which is a problem of course.

I try to imagine what you are speaking about. Sorry, I really do not get the idea. Maybe, could you reference to a video where this is shown, so that I could better understand what your question is about?

It's really simple:

You record two takes in a loop that goes from bar 1 to bar 5.

In Tracktion as I encounter it now, this results in two individual files which are each exactly 4 bars long.

In most DAWs this instead however results in one file that is eight bars long.

In the first case (i.e. Tracktion) you can not slip-edit this take (the way the Tracktion manual explains slip-editing) and you can also not increase the clip-length.

In DAWs that record a single file you can. And it's important to me - I need it all the time.

[pough]

You record two takes in a loop that goes from bar 1 to bar 5.

In Tracktion as I encounter it now, this results in two individual files which are each exactly 4 bars long.

In most DAWs this instead however results in one file that is eight bars long.

Really? Recording 4 bars results in an 8-bar audio clip? And the takes aren't stacked vertically, they play end-to-end? How is that useful? I kinda feel like I'm not getting your description right. Recording over 4 bars in a loop should create a comp clip which can easily be turned into a single file by either deleting the unused takes or rendering it.

If you want to extend an audio file/clip there is something relatively simple that you can do. You can add blank audio clips (which can be res0zed to any length) and then merge it with the original.

Drag from the plus button at the top right (the red one) and choose "Insert audio clip." That creates a blank audio clip, which you can drag to 8 bars. Put it over top the take clip, use Alt drag to select them both and Alt-M to render them to a single file.

Note that it creates a new audio file and the original remains on your HD.

[jens]

You record two takes in a loop that goes from bar 1 to bar 5.

In Tracktion as I encounter it now, this results in two individual files which are each exactly 4 bars long.

In most DAWs this instead however results in one file that is eight bars long.

Really? Recording 4 bars results in an 8-bar audio clip? And the takes aren't stacked vertically, they play end-to-end? How is that useful? I kinda feel like I'm not getting your description right. Recording over 4 bars in a loop should create a comp clip which can easily be turned into a single file by either deleting the unused takes or rendering it.

If you want to extend an audio file/clip there is something relatively simple that you can do. You can add blank audio clips (which can be res0zed to any length) and then merge it with the original.

Drag from the plus button at the top right (the red one) and choose "Insert audio clip." That creates a blank audio clip, which you can drag to 8 bars. Put it over top the take clip, use Alt drag to select them both and Alt-M to render them to a single file.

Note that it creates a new audio file and the original remains on your HD.

It seems you completely misunderstand - say:

example 1: you record four takes of rhythm-guitar. You want to use the third take. But the strum on the 1 of the first bar is a slow one, so it always comes in a bit early, i.e. you already start playing it at the end of the previous take - in e.g. Cubase, Reaper, Samplitude, Studio One, Logic you can simply drag the start of the clip left to open in up a bit (i.e. increase the clip-length)... if every take is its own individual file you however can't.

example 2: you record (say) a bassline and after the fact you notice that you've been pushing (or dragging - same issue) a bit too much all the time - otherwise (say) take two is good - same thing: in e.g. Cubase. Reaper, Samplitude, Studio One, Logic you can simply slip-edit the clip a bit to the right and be done with it (after a moment of critical listening, of course)... if every take is its own individual file you however can't.

Tbh I really don't get why you seem to have a problem wrapping your head around this - it's really a simple standard thing - which doesn't seem to be possible in Tracktion.

[jens]

Really? Recording 4 bars results in an 8-bar audio clip?

Yes, really - because after all if it's two takes of each four bars, then you continously played a total of eight bars (2x4=8 - at least over here in Europe ) - and you find it normal that the DAW artificially splits up these eight bars you played into two files but find it implausible that a DAW instead writes it onto the HD as one file? Really?

[jens]

Fwiw I just downloaded&installed T6 and at least there it's already the same...

[pough]

Tbh I really don't get why you seem to have a problem wrapping your head around this - it's really a simple standard thing - which doesn't seem to be possible in Tracktion.

Sorry, I'm trying to understand but I have to rely on your text descriptions and I find that most people just don't bother to mention details that seem irrelevant or obvious. I also have a tendency to take things at face value. For example when you said "one file that is eight bars long" I took that to mean exactly what you said and not one 8-bar file that has been artificially split into two 4-bar takes.

I think I get it now and I agree it would be very useful. Maybe someone can make a video of what's wanted to show the TSC folks and put the request in.

There might be a stupid workaround in the meantime. Turn the clip into a loop (via the L button on the clip header), stretch it to 3x its length (that's 12 bars in Europe), shift it left so that the middle is where it needs to be, then drag the left and right edges to be 4 bars again. I just tried it and was able to slide it left and right.

Sorry to make you crazy. I'm already crazy, so...

[jens]

one 8-bar file that has been artificially split into two 4-bar takes.

But the point is that that's not really the case - in DAWs that have real slip-editing you could increase the length of each individual take until you get the whole file that includes all takes, so it's not really split - it's just regions - they're like arbitrarily sized and placed windows into the whole file - which to me personally seems to make sooo much more sense that splitting it all up take for take to end up with something that's hugely less flexible and musically useful.

But I dunno - maybe it's easier to code to simply generate a new file for each take.

Edit: I don't even think it can be the case that it's (significantly) easier to code since the basic code already exists in all DAWs that have HD-recording - I mean: in Tracktion you can already create arbitrary regions out of any recorded audio-file.

[Peter Widdicombe]

I think you'll find there is a little bit of "slip file activity" taking place in Waveform as well. If you SHORTEN a clip by dragging handles or by cutting regions out of it, it does NOT create a new clip file - it's merely points withing the existing file - so you can grab the handles and get portions back; or slide the internal audio content back and forth within the window that's there.

... which is why it's dangerous to go removing audio files that you think aren't being used - you may be using regions of it, potentially in another track or another project !

If you COPY a region and paste as a new clip in same or other track, it doesn't really make a copy of it (I believe). Now, there may be some operations that DO really affect the file and may then copy/alter it; but I think I remember seeing that "all is not what you expect".

[jens]

Yes, exactly - which is why I said that the code for it already exists anyway. And Tracktion handles this really well interface-wise because it even has an extra-handle for slip-editing, which most DAWs don't have and which it is why I find it even more surprising that loop-recording is handled that way.