Reason 13 Announced- Sequencer updated!

[liquidsound]

Yes Jac, but after all that, you are still stuck with Bitwig!

[crimsonwarlock]

But it remains less powerful than Sweeper.

 

Of course, the CV-signal is just a basic thing that you can use to do things in Reason. This is the way things are (and can be) done in Reason: giving you the basics that can be the basis for anything. And this is the most significant difference with other DAWs, as it lets you do things that are near impossible in other DAWs.

Another thing is that most of the time, you don't want to side chain the full sound. For a kick you may want to get only the 300-1000hz to capture only the transient, or on the contrary, you will get the lower band on an arpeggiated pluck just to be sure you trigger your side chain only when the melody goes in a certain way, that's a pretty basic scenario.
 

Agreed, and in Reason you can patch anything into that sidechain signal, and again, doing things that are very hard or even impossible in other DAWs.

That is not easy to do in reason (at least until 13). You need to create a // channel, you need to EQ the sound, etc. etc. etc.... Spider audio is your friend as well as a ton of cables...
 

You are making a mountain out of a molehill

But still I think that reason is loosing ground compared to other "best in class" DAWs.
 

Let's just make this clear: I'm not part of that discussion. I'm just pointing out how certain things can be achieved in Reason, and that Reason can do things other DAWs cannot. Same as certain DAWs can do things that are hard in Reason and even in yet other DAWs.

I'm not here to tell you (or anyone) that Reason is better than any other DAW. I'm just pointing out that Reason's way of doing things is certainly superior for CERTAIN things. Same as other DAWs having their strengths (and weaknesses) as well.

You don't have to like Reason, and I'm not asking you to

[jens]

How do you do that ?

(E.g. - depending on what exactly you want to do) by using a track's CV OUT...
(which basically is already an envelope-follower, just without any envelope-controls)

Sorry Jens, I appreciate your effort to help me but I am even more confused hehe.

What I want to do to be clear is to have an envelop follower (not an envelop generator) usable to modulate the parameter of another channel. For example, to have the transient of a bassline, modulate the filter cutoff of another channel (for example a pad).

To do that I need an envelop follower.

Yes, I got what you want and I explained to you how to do it.

[jens]

Another thing is that most of the time, you don't want to side chain the full sound. For a kick you may want to get only the 300-1000hz to capture only the transient, or on the contrary, you will get the lower band on an arpeggiated pluck just to be sure you trigger your side chain only when the melody goes in a certain way, that's a pretty basic scenario.

For that you could create a combinator with BV512 and a few Spiders. (You'd basically use BV512 as a graphic EQ on the CV signal.)

[Jac459]

But it remains less powerful than Sweeper.

 

Of course, the CV-signal is just a basic thing that you can use to do things in Reason. This is the way things are (and can be) done in Reason: giving you the basics that can be the basis for anything. And this is the most significant difference with other DAWs, as it lets you do things that are near impossible in other DAWs.

Another thing is that most of the time, you don't want to side chain the full sound. For a kick you may want to get only the 300-1000hz to capture only the transient, or on the contrary, you will get the lower band on an arpeggiated pluck just to be sure you trigger your side chain only when the melody goes in a certain way, that's a pretty basic scenario.
 

Agreed, and in Reason you can patch anything into that sidechain signal, and again, doing things that are very hard or even impossible in other DAWs.

That is not easy to do in reason (at least until 13). You need to create a // channel, you need to EQ the sound, etc. etc. etc.... Spider audio is your friend as well as a ton of cables...
 

You are making a mountain out of a molehill

But still I think that reason is loosing ground compared to other "best in class" DAWs.
 

Let's just make this clear: I'm not part of that discussion. I'm just pointing out how certain things can be achieved in Reason, and that Reason can do things other DAWs cannot. Same as certain DAWs can do things that are hard in Reason and even in yet other DAWs.

I'm not here to tell you (or anyone) that Reason is better than any other DAW. I'm just pointing out that Reason's way of doing things is certainly superior for CERTAIN things. Same as other DAWs having their strengths (and weaknesses) as well.

You don't have to like Reason, and I'm not asking you to

I actually like Reason. Some of the devices are really really great.
And like you, I like what they tried to do with the RE.

And maybe these CVs are interesting compare to some DAWs. But at the end of the day my point is that CVs are just here to connect parameters between eachothers. Bitwig method for doing it is vastly superior. That's all I am I am trying to say.

On the other hand, default devices of Reason are better than the one in Bitwig. So it is not all one sided.

But anyway, interesting discussion. Thank you for sharing some tips in reason I didn't know.

[Jac459]

Another thing is that most of the time, you don't want to side chain the full sound. For a kick you may want to get only the 300-1000hz to capture only the transient, or on the contrary, you will get the lower band on an arpeggiated pluck just to be sure you trigger your side chain only when the melody goes in a certain way, that's a pretty basic scenario.

For that you could create a combinator with BV512 and a few Spiders. (You'd basically use BV512 as a graphic EQ on the CV signal.)

That's complex... But very clever. I like the idea.

[Jac459]

Yes Jac, but after all that, you are still stuck with Bitwig!

I know right?

And I don't see the situation change anytime soon... .

But Reason creating the RRP is something really awesome. I feel I have the best of both world.

[crimsonwarlock]

Bitwig method for doing it is vastly superior. That's all I am I am trying to say.

And still, you can do things in Reason (with cables) that are impossible in Bitwig. While Bitwig HAS a modular environment, Reason IS a modular environment. The subtle, but significant, difference is lost on most people (it seems). Same with someone stating that a routing matrix (like in most DAWs) can do the same things that the cable paradigm in Reason can. It is simply not true. It is like saying a non-modular synthesizer, where you connect things with switches (similar to a routing matrix), can do the same things as a fully modular system. I think it is clear to most people that that isn't true either.

In the end, this is the trade-off. A fully modular synthesizer is much more flexible than a pre-routed system, but setting up a patch takes increasingly more time. Same with Reason, where it takes more time to do certain things, but it makes it way more flexible.

It comes down to what you like and choose. From your perspective, Bitwig is superior. From my perspective, Reason is superior. We are both correct, from our own perspectives.

[Jac459]

Bitwig method for doing it is vastly superior. That's all I am I am trying to say.

And still, you can do things in Reason (with cables) that are impossible in Bitwig. While Bitwig HAS a modular environment, Reason IS a modular environment. The subtle, but significant, difference is lost on most people (it seems). Same with someone stating that a routing matrix (like in most DAWs) can do the same things that the cable paradigm in Reason can. It is simply not true. It is like saying a non-modular synthesizer, where you connect things with switches (similar to a routing matrix), can do the same things as a fully modular system. I think it is clear to most people that that isn't true either.

In the end, this is the trade-off. A fully modular synthesizer is much more flexible than a pre-routed system, but setting up a patch takes increasingly more time. Same with Reason, where it takes more time to do certain things, but it makes it way more flexible.

It comes down to what you like and choose. From your perspective, Bitwig is superior. From my perspective, Reason is superior. We are both correct, from our own perspectives.

It is always better when we are both correct....

But I can't agree on the modularity....Actually bitwig is far (but far far far) more modular than reason. And as a result much much more flexible also.

A few examples:
First the underlying technology of Bitwig is itself more modular (it is based on micro services and OOP). The result is that it is more productive to develop as you can change a module without impacting other. That's why for example they were the first to support the M1 when reason was the last. Also the audio engine is a component itself, modular. You can't crash Bitwig by crashing the audio engine. Try that with reason...

Then from a component standpoint: everything can be nested inside eachother and everything can be controlled by eachother. In a similar way that the example I gave you with the capacity to modulate the attack of a compressor, all parameters of Bitwig can be modulated. That is far from being the case in reason, only a handful of CV per device,

Then you have the grid. The grid is basically a super powerful modular environment. But you can even combine synths in a container (like a combinator but more powerful). Same for FX or midi players.

Then you have the capacity to repurpose stuffs. Really like a modular synth. You take an lfo modulation that you use for a parameter. Instead of a parameter, you make it modulate at audio rate a DC offset. Boom, you have created a simple synth.
Then you attach an envelop to this, instead of a simple LFO, you take a wave table LFO (something we will get in reason 19 maybe hehe) and boom, you have created a wave table synth.... From modulators.

Then you have the aspect of polyphonic modulations. You can manage monophonic modulation with CV only. Bitwig solved this issue in theost elegant way with voice stacking and CLAP.

It is just another level of flexibility and power. Reason is on the dust here... Really I gave you a few examples but don't hesitate to give me an example of flexibility reason can achieve... I would be surprised if it isn't deeper, more flexible and easier in Bitwig.

[xbitz]

Check out the voice stacking; that's where the differences between the technologies really show

[SLiC]

Check out the voice stacking; that's where the differences between the technologies really show

There is no doubt Bitwig has a lot of advanced features such as voice stacking, CLAP, unified modulation and most importantly (for me), MPE...but all that said, I find it a lot easier to get musical ideas done in Reason, especially if guitar and vocals are involved. Maybe its because I am a an older hardware guy (love the back of the rack), maybe the 'players' and integrated audio quantise (edit audit like midi) but I seem to be faster at get ideas down in Reason.

The are different enough to have both for different workflow, and with the rack you get the best of both worlds anyway.

[Jac459]

Check out the voice stacking; that's where the differences between the technologies really show
...

In my view Reason qualifies as a modular environment because of its flexibility of routing of audio and control signals

But it doesn't qualify as an advanced modular system because its control routing is only monophonic. For example, I can use a synchronous device as a control in order to enrich a synth with an MSEG.
That's good. But that is not polyphonic. Even if I play 3 notes in the synth, I will only have one synchronous playing and controlling the 3 notes the same way.
Monophonic...
In Bitwig all those controls can be polyphonics. This is a quantum leap in modularity.

Another quantum leap is when even the audio routing can be polyphonic like the example you are showing with voice stacking.

[Jac459]

Check out the voice stacking; that's where the differences between the technologies really show

There is no doubt Bitwig has a lot of advanced features such as voice stacking, CLAP, unified modulation and most importantly (for me), MPE...but all that said, I find it a lot easier to get musical ideas done in Reason, especially if guitar and vocals are involved. Maybe its because I am a an older hardware guy (love the back of the rack), maybe the 'players' and integrated audio quantise (edit audit like midi) but I seem to be faster at get ideas down in Reason.

The are different enough to have both for different workflow, and with the rack you get the best of both worlds anyway.

100%.

Reason has a different flavour that can be very inspiring.
And I agree, RRP is really a generous gift from Reason Studio allowing to have best of both worlds....

[xbitz]

+ what’s always worth noting, dear Mr. Moss, is the difference between the two DAWs

&

latest update was pretty cool

[crimsonwarlock]

But I can't agree on the modularity....Actually bitwig is far (but far far far) more modular than reason.

Yep, you still don't get it. Most people don't seem to

So, try this in Bitwig: break a mixer channel out of the main mixer and use it inside a patch of whatever you want to do. Here's a more crazy one: try to use a mixer channel as an insert inside another mixer channel. That last one is not that useful (however, it might be), but it illustrates the real modular nature of Reason. Or have signals somewhere in your project routed to hardware outputs (or inputs for that matter) without having them to go through the main mixer.

This made it possible for me to build a monitoring management console INSIDE Reason, while every other DAW needs external hardware for that kind of routing. My solution even takes care of different correction curves for each monitor set and headphones that I have connected, something even the hardware monitor stations cannot do (unless you buy one with embedded DSP, but then you need to sell a kidney).

These things are not possible in Bitwig afaik (never seen any example or video to the contrary). And they are not possible in any other DAW I know of besides Reason.