The sampler would be more useful, with these controls "also" being exposed as parameters.
-Start Position
-End Position
-Stretch Factor
The addition of optionally looping between Start and End positions (no third position or tail loop) would make those parameters meaningful.
Potentially, the tail looping position might be useful as a parameter.
FR:Sampler automation parameters
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
I think I requested the start and end position. Glad to see someone else support the idea! 
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 55 posts since 26 Feb, 2024
Well, otherwise you'd need a to buy a plug to do it. Typically, there are free alternatives; but in this case, not so much. I can think of a few free ones; but they are pretty heavy (compared to MuLab's). I'm not too much in favor of the paid plugs, either.
You can only recreate so much of that functionality, by manipulating samples in the sequencer.
For all glitch, stutter, scrub, scratch, etc., there are plenty of plugins. But that is the problem. You shouldn't need a plugin for each thing. It may be faster, but then you have no style of your own. Expression is provided for you, you can't design it yourself.
I guess I should be careful. Otherwise it'll sound like I'm venting.... wait....
Edit: I suppose you can route to record, and do it live; unless you are trying to simultaneously move Start and End around. I've only got one mouse pointer
You can only recreate so much of that functionality, by manipulating samples in the sequencer.
For all glitch, stutter, scrub, scratch, etc., there are plenty of plugins. But that is the problem. You shouldn't need a plugin for each thing. It may be faster, but then you have no style of your own. Expression is provided for you, you can't design it yourself.
I guess I should be careful. Otherwise it'll sound like I'm venting.... wait....
Edit: I suppose you can route to record, and do it live; unless you are trying to simultaneously move Start and End around. I've only got one mouse pointer
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
This is one of many reasons why vst support shouldn't be removed. Imagine how many little things like this would need to be added!
I do have a couple of sample player vsts but I really wish this was built into MuLab.
I do have a couple of sample player vsts but I really wish this was built into MuLab.
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- KVRAF
- 13862 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
See the Grain Player module.
With that one you can automate sample start & loop. And more:
With that one you can automate sample start & loop. And more:
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 55 posts since 26 Feb, 2024
The grain player adds some function. But lacks others.
- Stretch Factor (is live modification "at live sample playback position" possible?)
- You can't set the loop-start at the sample's end and loop-end at sample's start, for reversed playback (the sampler can).
- ping-pong or reverse loop (I may not have studied the grain player enough, maybe it has these)?
If the grain player is the preferred way, a reverse playback trigger (at playback position) parameter might work.
I see the potential to use two grain players (one with the sample reversed). It just adds to the automation and timing a person would need to work out; not that it isn't naturally already that way.
Another useful automation parameter (maybe for both the sample and grain player) would be pause (enable/disable). You could manually automate a stutter, or tie a generator to it.
Edit: (this is just conversational and not "entirely" on topic) The desire is total control over the path/point of playback. Like scrubbing or scratching, but not limited to just those styles. Stretch is nice for when you slowdown (or as it really works, an alternative to slowing down); otherwise the pitch can sink the audio too low to really hear. But a tapedeck/scratch "slow till stop effect" is also nice to have.
I've been supplementing by heavy "audio sequencer track" work and external/internal audio editing.
Honest thoughts, anyone?
- Stretch Factor (is live modification "at live sample playback position" possible?)
- You can't set the loop-start at the sample's end and loop-end at sample's start, for reversed playback (the sampler can).
- ping-pong or reverse loop (I may not have studied the grain player enough, maybe it has these)?
If the grain player is the preferred way, a reverse playback trigger (at playback position) parameter might work.
I see the potential to use two grain players (one with the sample reversed). It just adds to the automation and timing a person would need to work out; not that it isn't naturally already that way.
Another useful automation parameter (maybe for both the sample and grain player) would be pause (enable/disable). You could manually automate a stutter, or tie a generator to it.
Edit: (this is just conversational and not "entirely" on topic) The desire is total control over the path/point of playback. Like scrubbing or scratching, but not limited to just those styles. Stretch is nice for when you slowdown (or as it really works, an alternative to slowing down); otherwise the pitch can sink the audio too low to really hear. But a tapedeck/scratch "slow till stop effect" is also nice to have.
I've been supplementing by heavy "audio sequencer track" work and external/internal audio editing.
Honest thoughts, anyone?
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- KVRist
- 185 posts since 10 Dec, 2007 from A'pen
those "basic" 9T samplers functionality still lacks in software
SW's great at special things though, i can't compare my modular grain player with this one (the quality of the sound, something ML excels in)
SW's great at special things though, i can't compare my modular grain player with this one (the quality of the sound, something ML excels in)
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
Grain acts as an oscillator, doesn't stop playing, far as I can tell, never used it.
Sample player acts more like a synth, press a key, it plays.
Btw, shouldn't the Grain Start To be labelled Grain End? And then Grain Start From could just be Grain Start. Maybe I missed something, but I find it weird how they are named.
Also, Grain Start From and Grain Start To parameters would also benefit from being knobs, ie enable MIDI mapping on them.
Tbh, I think every parameter should be MIDI mappable. You'd be surprised at what could be done even with those parameters that seem unlikely to benefit from it.
Sample player acts more like a synth, press a key, it plays.
Btw, shouldn't the Grain Start To be labelled Grain End? And then Grain Start From could just be Grain Start. Maybe I missed something, but I find it weird how they are named.
Also, Grain Start From and Grain Start To parameters would also benefit from being knobs, ie enable MIDI mapping on them.
Tbh, I think every parameter should be MIDI mappable. You'd be surprised at what could be done even with those parameters that seem unlikely to benefit from it.
Last edited by sl23 on Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
You load the grain, it's got its own start (0) and end (0+length). "Start from" is the offset from 0. "Start to" is also an offset from 0. I _think_ that's because the grain could be overlaid onto a sample at a specific place (grain start, 0), so you needed the concept of offset. I've not used it, though...
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
The way you describe it, it's like you set the Start To and then adjusting the Start From moves the Start To position in relation to the Start From. ie, it remains the same length, it doesn't. But that's what Grain Start and Grain Length do. I guess I misunderstood you?
Tbh, I don't understand the differences between:
Grain Start From and Grain Start
or
Grain Start To and Grain Length
In fact, testing it showed that Start To made no difference to the sound anyway?!
Tbh, I don't understand the differences between:
Grain Start From and Grain Start
or
Grain Start To and Grain Length
In fact, testing it showed that Start To made no difference to the sound anyway?!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 55 posts since 26 Feb, 2024
@sl23
I noticed that too; but I did figure it out. You control one end of the loop, by length. Then the other by the position of the grain, which in turn moves the other one as well. So there is technically only one loop point controller. Length does double duty.
It still doesn't provide the desired outcome. But it does make it so you can move up and down a sound wave, while changing size of the window (grain) that is looped.
I think it only loops forward. But there is no tail loop, to deal with.
I had submitted an idea for getting around all of this. But, that's like saying "I have an idea for a unicorn". I'm sure it is every developer's dream, to develop a mystical creature with their magic keyboard.
I think we need to donate towards cloning Jo.
I noticed that too; but I did figure it out. You control one end of the loop, by length. Then the other by the position of the grain, which in turn moves the other one as well. So there is technically only one loop point controller. Length does double duty.
It still doesn't provide the desired outcome. But it does make it so you can move up and down a sound wave, while changing size of the window (grain) that is looped.
I think it only loops forward. But there is no tail loop, to deal with.
I had submitted an idea for getting around all of this. But, that's like saying "I have an idea for a unicorn". I'm sure it is every developer's dream, to develop a mystical creature with their magic keyboard.
I think we need to donate towards cloning Jo.
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
Yeah we need ten Jo's to get everything everyone wants!
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- KVRAF
- 7412 posts since 8 Feb, 2003 from London, UK
No, I said "Start From is an offset from 0" and "Start To is also an offset from from 0", where "0" is the Start of the grain. Their independent. I didn't say or imply moving one moved the other. "Start of the grain" is not "Start From". That was my point.sl23 wrote: Mon Jan 20, 2025 8:07 pm The way you describe it, it's like you set the Start To and then adjusting the Start From moves the Start To position in relation to the Start From. ie, it remains the same length
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- KVRAF
- 3156 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
So start from and to are basically setting loop points? Why aren't they called loop start and loop end? Makes much more sense!