Software vs Hardware

[zerocrossing]

This is a fantastic example of when the two worlds meet. This is the most exciting new instrument I've seen in a long time.

Yeah, I saw some of those videos. Looks really interesting to me as well, though I'm very happy with the Microwave 1 emulation plugin. I actually like it more than the 3rd Wave and the M, but that thing looks very interesting. I'd definitely consider it if the price is decent.

Sadly, I doubt the price will be comfortable at all. It's seemingly developed in Stockholm, Sweden, so even if it is a passion project of a lone developer, the costs of doing anything there is pretty damn high.

So you like the MW plugin better than the 3rd Wave? Wow. That was unexpected. I mean I really like the MW1 - but the 3rd Wave seems so damn perfect.

I thought it was Italian... oh well. Tariffs will probably make it crazy expensive in the US anyway.

The 3rd Wave was definitely capable of making some great sounds, but there was something dull about the oscillators that bugged me. Not as noticeable on higher notes, where harmonics are getting past the range of hearing, but lower notes always had a bit of a muted tone that started to drive me crazy. Play a chord past C4 and you wouldn't notice it, but if your part spans 61 keys, you notice it. As soon as the Microwave 1 plugin came out, I did a side by side, and instantly got what I was after. Not the PPG sound, but that bright artifact laden sound that made those old classics. The Waldorf PPG actually sounded a lot better in the wavetable department than the 3rd Wave. Of course, that's not all the 3rd Wave is about, but when the rubber hit the road, it wasn't that amazing doing hybrid sounds either. Dune and Pigments were just as good, and in some ways better.

That's the thing, really. Not to disparage hardware synths, but software synths are getting so damn good that I am looking at my hardware and wondering why I have so much of it. I can definitely trim down a bit and not miss much. Some things are so unique that I don't think I can ever replace them, like my Prophet 12 or PolyBrute, but the 3rd Wave honeymoon was short-lived.

[Uncle E]

It’s those SSI filters. Everything that has them has that sound.

[cryophonik]

I recall the Polyvera developer saying it will likely be in the €2K range. It looks and sounds nice, but it won’t be replacing anything of mine at that price range. Actually, the only hardware synth that currently has my attention is the Dreadbox Artemis, but I’ll probably wait until secondhand units start hitting the streets and snag a deal from a regretful buyer.

[zerocrossing]

I recall the Polyvera developer saying it will likely be in the €2K range. It looks and sounds nice, but it won’t be replacing anything of mine at that price range. Actually, the only hardware synth that currently has my attention is the Dreadbox Artemis, but I’ll probably wait until secondhand units start hitting the streets and snag a deal from a regretful buyer.

$2k's a bit more than I think I'd be willing to pay for a 6 voice hybrid. I get that small operations have problems scaling operations to make things inexpensively, but I'm between jobs at the moment, so my hardware budget is basically zero. I'll probably sell one of my guitar soon, a Strandberg, which could get me in the neighborhood, but we'll see. I'm not entirely sure it solves a problem that I have. Between TAL Sampler, Microwave 1, PPG 3, SQ-80 V, Emulator V, I have a lot of options for vintage hybrids. It doesn't matter to me if it's hardware, so I don't care that much. For modern hybrids, I already have a Prophet 12, Ambika, and Nina, so I'm good.

[zerocrossing]

It’s those SSI filters. Everything that has them has that sound.

The analog filter was good. The digital one, was a bit bland, to be honest. Did the job, but nothing to write home about. The real issue for me was that the digital oscillator section was sub par. Didn't sound particularly analog, and the artifacts of the vintage digital sounded dull. To top it off, the mod matrix didn't run at a high enough rate to get smooth audio rate modulation, though there was direct oscillator FM that sounded good.

I'm not saying the 3rd Wave is a bad synth. Definitely not. I was just after something that sounded like as much as possible to a PPG Wave, but with a modern feature set. I just didn't feel it was good enough at doing that.

[DrGonzo]

Not to disparage hardware synths, but software synths are getting so damn good that I am looking at my hardware and wondering why I have so much of it. I can definitely trim down a bit and not miss much. Some things are so unique that I don't think I can ever replace them, like my Prophet 12 or PolyBrute, but the 3rd Wave honeymoon was short-lived.

Last couple of years I've started to feel the same. It's really now when software is at that crazy high level you can do anything you want really. For me it kind of started with u-he Repro where I felt I entered a new level, and after that more and more companies are releasing incredible stuff.

Still, there are the glaring problem with software that the gaming community have faced for ages: keeping your old software going. That and hardware (sometimes) being way more tactile than any computer + mouse / controller can ever be.

But yes, just talking about sound, hardware is no longer the king.

Maybe Eurorack is still the most innovative place for sound generation though. As much as I try to avoid modulars, the stuff that are coming out from Kickstarter / small developers are just fantastic.

[DrGonzo]

I recall the Polyvera developer saying it will likely be in the €2K range. It looks and sounds nice, but it won’t be replacing anything of mine at that price range. Actually, the only hardware synth that currently has my attention is the Dreadbox Artemis, but I’ll probably wait until secondhand units start hitting the streets and snag a deal from a regretful buyer.

Damn. 2K, that is a bit steep. The Artemis looks extremely fun to use.

[BONES]

Even if the risk of something is exceedingly low it's not zero. The risk of a house fire is also exceedingly low, but I have smoke detectors and fire insurance just in case

You are an insurance company's dream. You will likely spend tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars over your lifetime and never have to make a claim. You might as well flush that money down the toilet every year, how can you not see that? It's a con, they feed on your paranoia and inability to judge risk.

you also think a child riding in a bus could have avoided having a car hit his school bus if he was situationally aware or something while the bus was driving down the highway

Actually, if you could read you'd have seen that I actually the said the opposite, that it was a bit much to expect a child to have that awareness (and there are good reasons why that is so).

In any case I don't run multiple computers for the sole purpose of having redundancy in case of failure

I understand that. Clearly, you do it because you are crazy.

I run multiple computers so I can use more cores, more RAM, and more Hard Drive Capacity than I have installed in any singular computer I own at less cost. I currently have over 40 cores and over 200GB of RAM available for Audio and Video projects. Not sure why you can't see the benefits of that but you do you

20 years ago it made perfect sense, I don't see that it is at all necessary in 2025. Our professional editors at work, for example, use small footprint HP Z2 Mini computers that clip to a bracket on the back of the monitors they use. Those machines are more than adequate for their needs, what do you think you're doing that requires anything more? And, as you know, I use a gaming handheld for music. It's all I need and I can't see that most of the people around here would need anything more if they had the first f**king clue what they were doing.

I got my first computer in 1982, ever since then when I upgraded to a new one I kept the old one in case the new one ever went down due to either a hardware or software issue. That practice came in handy a few times.

When was the last time? It wouldn't have helped me since 2003, when I had a disk in a RAID go down. But even that was no big deal, I can't remember losing much, if any work as a result. The effort you put into protecting your data is likely greater than that which would be required in the event of a failure.

I consider that a win win

Waste of time and money from where I'm sitting. Maybe you should try living dangerously for a change, it's much more exciting than constantly playing it safe.

But that is more nostalgia than anything else. It took quite a while until Fullbucket recreated a Poly 800, my first synth. I didn‘t really miss it, but its nice to have it back.

1. Synapse made a much better Pol800 emulation years and years ago.
2. I think the Poly800 was the most disappointing synth I've ever owned. It seemed like a dream come true, until you tried to use it. It wasn't terrible but it was far from good.

All this collecting of old gear, be it hardware or software is human, even if it doesn‘t make sense if you only value time and money. There is more than efficiency in life to make someone happy…
Whatever will inspire you is worth to keep…

Sure, it only pisses me off when people try to suggest it is anything other than that, that their idiotic decisions would make sense for anyone else. I have hardware because I kinda like having hardware around but I know it's actually shit and I would never even be tempted to use it in production. That's why I will always discourage anyone else from buying any. I understand that it's not a rational thing.

[zerocrossing]

Not to disparage hardware synths, but software synths are getting so damn good that I am looking at my hardware and wondering why I have so much of it. I can definitely trim down a bit and not miss much. Some things are so unique that I don't think I can ever replace them, like my Prophet 12 or PolyBrute, but the 3rd Wave honeymoon was short-lived.

Last couple of years I've started to feel the same. It's really now when software is at that crazy high level you can do anything you want really. For me it kind of started with u-he Repro where I felt I entered a new level, and after that more and more companies are releasing incredible stuff.

Yeah, there really are so many amazing plugins out there now. I was shocked how good Korg's ARP 2600 plugin is. Now their multi/poly is similarly impressive, in a different direction.

Still, there are the glaring problem with software that the gaming community have faced for ages: keeping your old software going.

Is that really that big a problem, though? I've been using plugins fairly regularly since about 2005 and very few things that I bought don't work on my current system, and a lot of stuff that didn't has been replaced with much better tech. The cost was so low on a lot of those plugins that I feel I got my money's worth and even with the cost of the replacement, I still spent so much less than a comparable hardware instrument.

That and hardware (sometimes) being way more tactile than any computer + mouse / controller can ever be.

That's always going to be an issue, but not one that affects me.

But yes, just talking about sound, hardware is no longer the king.

Sound quality, no, though some things like really high quality per-voice distortion are a bit on the rare side. Also, some hardware synths just have a certain character that I find interesting and unique. That's mostly what I go for in a hardware synth.

Maybe Eurorack is still the most innovative place for sound generation though. As much as I try to avoid modulars, the stuff that are coming out from Kickstarter / small developers are just fantastic.

Hardware modular isn't for me, though I get the allure. I feel like VCV Rack and Reaktor give me plenty of innovation and flexibility. I just upgraded my Madrona Labs collection last year and I've yet to explore it all to its fullest potential.

[zerocrossing]

Even if the risk of something is exceedingly low it's not zero. The risk of a house fire is also exceedingly low, but I have smoke detectors and fire insurance just in case

You are an insurance company's dream. You will likely spend tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars over your lifetime and never have to make a claim. You might as well flush that money down the toilet every year, how can you not see that? It's a con, they feed on your paranoia and inability to judge risk.

You don't understand the basic principles of insurance. Winning at that game means never having a claim at all. What you paid for is peace of mind, that in the case of a large loss, you won't be rendered destitute. The idea of insurance is to spread the risk over as large a population as possible. So even though a house fire is rare, the magnitude of the loss is very high. So, if everyone pays a small portion of the predicted overall loss over the premium period, plus a sum for the service, you can live fairly worry free, and if you are part of the portion of people who have a disaster, you can continue on without too much of a loss.

Now, of course, that's the way it's supposed to work. Without good regulations and a way to police them, insurance companies can screw you over, but that's another issue.

[DrGonzo]

Still, there are the glaring problem with software that the gaming community have faced for ages: keeping your old software going.

Is that really that big a problem, though? I've been using plugins fairly regularly since about 2005 and very few things that I bought don't work on my current system, and a lot of stuff that didn't has been replaced with much better tech. The cost was so low on a lot of those plugins that I feel I got my money's worth and even with the cost of the replacement, I still spent so much less than a comparable hardware instrument.

In 8 out of 10 cases I would agree with you. Sure, who wants to use Steinberg Neon or the early SynthEdit plugins these days. I mean, they can be nostalgic and fun for a while, but I doubt seeing anyone would seriously want to use NI Pro-5 these days.

But that being said, there are a handful of extremely competent softwares that have just just disappeared and there are no replacement, the only way to run them is by having a separate computer for them. Mainly not talking about plugins here, but applications, converters, editors and stuff like that. But if the original FXpansion Guru were able to run on my Mac, I would most likely use it - I have maybe 10-15 viable alternatives that are better hotter cooler etc, but Guru was easy, simple and FUN.

Anyway childish moanings from my part this morning. No big deal. Just have a separate computer and all is fine.

[IvyBirds]

Even if the risk of something is exceedingly low it's not zero. The risk of a house fire is also exceedingly low, but I have smoke detectors and fire insurance just in case

You are an insurance company's dream. You will likely spend tens, possibly hundreds of thousands of dollars over your lifetime and never have to make a claim. You might as well flush that money down the toilet every year, how can you not see that? It's a con, they feed on your paranoia and inability to judge risk.

Really? Let's see in America if you have a mortgage like most people do, you need fire insurance. My fire insurance is actually pretty inexpensive

In America if you own a car you need car insurance by law

I also maintain life insurance because I want my wife and kids taken care of if I die. So if I drop dead tomorrow, I know they will be fine.

To me it's called being responsible, most mature adults would have no issues with that but you do you

[IvyBirds]

Actually, if you could read you'd have seen that I actually the said the opposite, that it was a bit much to expect a child to have that awareness

I did read what you wrote and found it rather idiotic. The very fact you think a passenger riding in a bus at any age could prevent a drunk driver hitting their bus while driving down the highway with any kind of situational awareness is pretty idiotic. How does awareness as a passenger or a driver prevent a drunk driver from running a res traffic light in an intersection and slamming into the side of your bus with any kind of awareness

Self awareness is an awesome thing you should try it sometime

[El°HYM]

If one of my computer breaks, I have to repair it. [...] but definitely more work.

If one of your hardware synths you are always talking about breaks, you have to repair it. Using something like Audio Gridder may allow you to finish a session and then fix that hardware synth (which is a good thing), but ultimately you have to repair that hardware synth. More hardware synths equals more chances of maintenance / repair work, which you eventually have to do (instead of doing something else more enjoyable to me). No showstoppers, but definitely more work for you

The reality is every argument you keep throwing out about using multiple computers as DSP servers also applies to your hardware synths equally if not more so

I know (most of) my considerations about multiple computers are applicable to hardware as well. I thought I made it clear that, when it comes to the risk of a showstopper vs some "minor" faults, it's the same for hardware and computers. More things equals to more work.

I specified "most of" because there's a fundamental difference on how tight things are integrated when it comes to computers/software. Hardware is just audio and midi (and maybe a software editor), it's more decoupled. The tight integration, together with the fact that computers and software are a "moving target" (they are always evolving), may require some specific considerations...

Anyway, my arguments were more about "single vs multiple computers" and the "downsides" of a setup with multiple computers. In some cases more than one computer makes sense, in other situations it makes less sense... each solution has advantages and disadvantages, there's no free lunch (and that applies to hardware as well!).

In the end it all comes down to sound. For me the sounds I get with my software instruments equals it exceeds that of which I could get with hardware instruments, even if that difference is just more polyphony or the ability to have more timbres going at the same time, but I really enjoy deep complex software instruments that don't really have hardware equivalents, and those that come close don't have the level of customizable physical controls I want

My only challenges in 2025 is that a lot of the software instruments I like, in the way I like to use them also take up quite a bit of CPU and RAM so I use tools that give me more CPU and RAM and at far less cost than using hardware synths

For your use case, Audio Gridder looks like the right solution.
By the way, I have no issues with it or with software in general. Tools are a personal preference.

For you, you enjoy hardware synths, that's awesome, I have no issues with that, but let's not pretend you do so because you are worried about repairs and maintenance if you were you wouldn't use hardware synths at all either

My day job is performing maintenance (= bug fix) on some custom corporate software (and sometimes I also have to fix the wrong data caused by those bugs). I'm definitely not afraid of maintenance, whenever it's hardware or software, otherwise I would be doing something else in my life! At the same time, I don't want to fix computers in my free time, so I choose accordingly in order to keep that at minimum.


Thinking about the way things could fail (they all do fail at some point, that's a given!), the possible consequences and what it takes to fix them is part of my mindset... there are things that would bother me, so I try to choose accordingly to try to minimise/avoid them. Those may not be the absolute worst things in the world, but they bother me...
Maybe it's just a matter of personal preferences (and past experiences as well, for example using some tech that wrapped vst plugins in order to offer a very good integration with some controllers...)


Speaking of my hardware, I know for a fact that I will have to do maintenance / repairs at a certain point and it will be neither easy nor cheap. I'm honest, I'm not thrilled about it. So far I had to remove a lot of rubber from knobs and it wasn't fun at all...


Anyway, it's about finding something that works well for ourselves, not to please someone else. It's a personal choice, there's no right or wrong choice nor completely perfect solution...

In my opinion, being aware of the weak points helps handling things when they go wrong.


Just my two cents, of course.

When will you two finally join forces instead of trying to hardware/software - Baptize each other and build the greatest Hybrid - setup ever known to Mankind?

[sin night]

When will you two finally join forces instead of trying to hardware/software - Baptize each other and build the greatest Hybrid - setup ever known to Mankind?

mmm... let me think about it... I could build the greatest setup and then become the greatest technician just to keep it running, with no time left for music making... it sounds like a good deal to me...
I'm just afraid of the baptism: electronic devices (including computers) don't go along well with water...


I'll try to give a serious answer: I'm not interested in building the greatest setup; I'm interested in building a setup that does the job for my own needs, trying to keep a balance between what it can do and the complexity involved to make it happen.

And, to be honest, my setup already involves too much tech (which takes away some time from making music, of course...).

Any change to my current setup needs to meet my own cost/benefit criteria. Some things, while great on their own, may not provide a substantial benefit to me, because of my current situation and my own needs at the moment. At the same time, those things could be the right choice for someone else. I'm cool with that...


Aside my love for technology, I like to look into other people choices because they could provide inspiration to improve things on own setup, whenever it's better workflow, more possibilities or easier technology. Sometimes their choices work for me as well, sometimes they don't...

I think this is the ultimate reason why we discuss about different choices (hardware vs software, mac vs pc and so on), we need to get know what works and which are the downsides to then try come up with solutions to improve what we use... This is my goal, at least...


Anyway, I think I'll stop here... I have a feeling I went on too much on this subject...