Any modern alternative to Shortcircuit?

[baconpaul]

I don't mean to damp your enthusiasm, by the way, but in my mind 'open format' means 'editable and renderable in loads of tools with a published spec' and that's not what we are doing.

If by open format you mean 'non-human-editable format loadable in one fully open tool' then yes SCXT will be that. (And in fact we already have monolith-saves working). But it's not competition with SFZ, SF2 etc... (in fact we can load those formats now, and do other things like pick a single sample out of an SF2 or a GIG file and pull it into the short circuit workflow).

[wikter]

Sample presets for this program are going to be everywhere!

Well... Supporting some open formats is better than creating new open formats.
The idea about Shortcircuit is to make a Synthesizer to mangle & tweak samples or multisamples.
Patches can include samples or not, as there's a wide generator system to pick from.
It'd be great to allow SC to load samples from online sources...

[audiojunkie]

Sample presets for this program are going to be everywhere!

Well... Supporting some open formats is better than creating new open formats.
The idea about Shortcircuit is to make a Synthesizer to mangle & tweak samples or multisamples.
Patches can include samples or not, as there's a wide generator system to pick from.
It'd be great to allow SC to load samples from online sources...

I understand that the "idea" about Shortcircuit-XT is to be able to mangle and tweak samples or multisamples, but since the industry does not have an open source general sampler, this is the closest thing we have--and it's pretty much there, whether that was the original idea or not. An open source sampler that allows anyone to use a GUI to make their instruments is not something that comes along every day in the open source world--I've been waiting for 20+ years for one. This is pretty much it, except for it not being the "idea" of what you originally wanted. So, here's the thing. Since it is already mostly a general purpose sampler, why not adjust the "idea" to be: "Shortcircuit-XT is a general purpose sampler that excels in mangling and tweaking samples or multisamples." Keep the fact that this is a general purpose sampler as well as the fact that it excels in mangling and tweaking as part of the design plan and goal for this sampler. Do both. We need both. We really, really want both. Shortcircuit-XT is the software plugin to do this.

[baconpaul]

Isn’t sfizz an open source general sampler?

Shortcircuit will be cool and useful. My only point is it won’t be a portable standard. It would be very hard to write a bit of non short circuit code which loaded a short circuit stream unlike sf2 and sfz where parsers are plentiful

[audiojunkie]

Sfizz-UI is more of a library player than a sampler. It doesn’t have a GUI for creating instrument presets. That’s been the Achilles heel of SFZ since the beginning. Things would be completely different for SFZ if an open source GUI-based instrument creator had been developed by someone. SFZ is a nice format, but the ability to code the gui components and the midi cc controls and such that make SFZ really useful is outside of the abilities of a non-programmer to create from a text file. Most musicians are not programmers. This is why Shortcircuit-XT holds so much promise.

[Shabdahbriah]

Sfizz-UI is more of a library player than a sampler. It doesn’t have a GUI for creating instrument presets. That’s been the Achilles heel of SFZ since the beginning. Things would be completely different for SFZ if an open source GUI-based instrument creator had been developed by someone. SFZ is a nice format, but the ability to code the gui components and the midi cc controls and such that make SFZ really useful is outside of the abilities of a non-programmer to create from a text file. Most musicians are not programmers. This is why Shortcircuit-XT holds so much promise.

So, admittedly, I never really paid much attention to it because it was so heavily 'text' based, and it appears that the 'issue' remains the lack of addressing and implementing a method of recording knob/slider/button/switch (etc), and text GUI/UX settings to the text file that is stored with/in the SFZ file? Notwithstanding different SFZ players/instruments don't all play, or only play certain things (functions) and not other things, that are part of the SFZ formats capabilities.

[audiojunkie]

Sfizz-UI is more of a library player than a sampler. It doesn’t have a GUI for creating instrument presets. That’s been the Achilles heel of SFZ since the beginning. Things would be completely different for SFZ if an open source GUI-based instrument creator had been developed by someone. SFZ is a nice format, but the ability to code the gui components and the midi cc controls and such that make SFZ really useful is outside of the abilities of a non-programmer to create from a text file. Most musicians are not programmers. This is why Shortcircuit-XT holds so much promise.

So, admittedly, I never really paid much attention to it because it was so heavily 'text' based, and it appears that the 'issue' remains the lack of addressing and implementing a method of recording knob/slider/button/switch (etc), and text GUI/UX settings to the text file that is stored with/in the SFZ file? Notwithstanding different SFZ players/instruments don't all play, or only play certain things (functions) and not other things, that are part of the SFZ formats capabilities.

That’s really the point. Just like you yourself said—musicians want to make music, not code text. You never paid much attention to it because it was text based. I myself tried really hard, and I can make a basic instrument, but I don’t have the skill to set up midi cc controls for the instruments I make. And there’s no point in trying to deal with GUI coding since most SFZ parsers don’t support graphics controls, and Sforzando and Sfizz-UI support it differently. So, with just a few exceptions, most SFZ instruments are very, very basic and have no modulation, no ADSR, no access to cutoff or resonance, etc. The capability is there if you know how to code. Otherwise, your SFZ instrument is going to be crippled beyond the early basics of SF2 v.1. So, because of the difficulty in creating a well made SFZ instrument, SFZ doesn’t get used much. This could change if someone were to code a GUI-based SFZ instrument builder tool. The closest thing we have, is Polyphone, a very nice tool for creating SF2 instruments, that just happens to support the very basic opcodes of SFZ as well. If more SFZ opcodes were supported, this could be a very useful tool for SFZ users. But alas, 20 years have passed, and SFZ still doesn’t have a powerful SFZ editor. And thusly the SFZ format languishes—full of unmet potential. After 20 years, I’m willing to grasp out at other sources of hope. I truly believe Shortcircuit-XT has the potential to be that hope. Shortcircuit-XT has most of the features of a general sampler, and can be used creatively and for sample mangling. The developers just need to see it for what it truly is, and not short change themselves with a limited vision of the truly magnificent piece of software that they have been making.

[EvilDragon]

I agree with Paul that, while your enthusiasm is appreciated, I think you may be big-upping things more than needed indeed. This is not an open format like sfz we're creating here.

SCXT is not going to change the industry (for starters - there's no direct from disk streaming). But it's going to be fun to use.

[audiojunkie]

I agree with Paul that, while your enthusiasm is appreciated, I think you may be big-upping things more than needed indeed. This is not an open format like sfz we're creating here.

SCXT is not going to change the industry (for starters - there's no direct from disk streaming). But it's going to be fun to use.

I thought Paul had said that he found a way to add disk streaming. That's about the only thing that Shortcircuit-XT needs now. You can still access the samples from the presets, right? Sample access was another thing that we had discussed that is essential. I'm still enthusiastic, as much as you try to dampen things.

[baconpaul]

No I can save files in monoliths but all samples load into memory not stream from disk right now

I might have a way to do wav and aiff d2d in far distant future but not for 10

[baconpaul]

But really @audiojunkie I think you should just download the nightly and see what it does. Also join us in discord! That’s where most of the action is

[mjolnir]

I'm still grooving regularly on Short Circuit 1.1.1. So this talk of Short Circuit XT is all icing on the superfoods cake for me.

For what it's worth, Vember Surge was really impressive too, and I got a lot of good use out of it even when everyone seemed to be talking about NI Massive. I couldn't get anybody to take me seriously as I sang the praises of Surge. Fast forward to now, Surge XT is extremely successful, and I did try it, but I moved back to Short Circuit and gave up Surge XT for a while (as a musician I don't want to sound too much like everybody else yet I rely upon presets).

I guess all I'm trying to say is, I'm glad these products are here, they are each very impressive even if not always fully appreciated.
The Vember Legacy lives on!

[enroe]

... So, with just a few exceptions, most SFZ instruments are very, very basic and have no modulation, no ADSR, no access to cutoff or resonance, etc. ...

But alas, 20 years have passed, and SFZ still doesn’t have a powerful SFZ editor. ...

Yes, that's all true. But that damn text editor is SFZ's greatest
strength. Because it's so damn simple and easy.

--- Examples ---

Need modulation? Here it is:

pitchlfo_depthcc1=30
pitchlfo_freq=3

Do you need ADSR? It's easy:

ampeg_attack=0.01
ampeg_decay=0
ampeg_sustain=100
ampeg_release=0.2

Do you need a cutoff filter? 3 lines:

fil_type=lpf_2p
cutoff=800
fil_veltrack=6000

Everything is so damn simple. With any other sampler or
synthesizer, you look in the user manual and read what each
button does. And that's the same with SFZ: You just don't look
at buttons, you look at commands.

And then you can define your own buttons in Sforzando, for
example, for "Attack" in ADSR:

ampeg_attackcc73=0.5
label_cc73=attack time (cc73)

complete!

Instead of searching for buttons in the manual, you can look for
commands in the SFZ Reference. It couldn't be easier – and it
usually works for ALL SFZ players.

I'm putting forward the hypothesis: Anyone who can install a
DAW can also write their own SFZ. But okay - this is supposed
to be about Shortcircuit ...

[audiojunkie]

... So, with just a few exceptions, most SFZ instruments are very, very basic and have no modulation, no ADSR, no access to cutoff or resonance, etc. ...

But alas, 20 years have passed, and SFZ still doesn’t have a powerful SFZ editor. ...

Yes, that's all true. But that damn text editor is SFZ's greatest
strength. Because it's so damn simple and easy.

--- Examples ---

Need modulation? Here it is:

pitchlfo_depthcc1=30
pitchlfo_freq=3

Do you need ADSR? It's easy:

ampeg_attack=0.01
ampeg_decay=0
ampeg_sustain=100
ampeg_release=0.2

Do you need a cutoff filter? 3 lines:

fil_type=lpf_2p
cutoff=800
fil_veltrack=6000

Everything is so damn simple. With any other sampler or
synthesizer, you look in the user manual and read what each
button does. And that's the same with SFZ: You just don't look
at buttons, you look at commands.

And then you can define your own buttons in Sforzando, for
example, for "Attack" in ADSR:

ampeg_attackcc73=0.5
label_cc73=attack time (cc73)

complete!

Instead of searching for buttons in the manual, you can look for
commands in the SFZ Reference. It couldn't be easier – and it
usually works for ALL SFZ players.

I'm putting forward the hypothesis: Anyone who can install a
DAW can also write their own SFZ. But okay - this is supposed
to be about Shortcircuit ...

I'll take your word for it. Maybe you can help with a template that will make me no longer need to complain about the difficulties of programming SFZ text. But I have to say, that what you are showing here is not what I'm referring to. I'm referring to midi CC controlled items, such as midi cc controlled ADSR, modulation, cutoff frequency, resonance, pitch wheel control, vibrato wheel control, volume control, pan control, etc. etc. Open and available for anyone to use their knobs on their midi controller or automation in their DAW. Things become a whole lot more difficult when trying to set up and control that stuff. And that stuff is what takes a plain boring sample to the next level of being useful. Are you able to set up a generic template that can be appended to the beginning of any SFZ text file? That's what I am needing and wanting.

[wikter]

Sfizz-UI is more of a library player than a sampler. It doesn’t have a GUI for creating instrument presets. That’s been the Achilles heel of SFZ since the beginning. Things would be completely different for SFZ if an open source GUI-based instrument creator had been developed by someone. SFZ is a nice format, but the ability to code the gui components and the midi cc controls and such that make SFZ really useful is outside of the abilities of a non-programmer to create from a text file. Most musicians are not programmers. This is why Shortcircuit-XT holds so much promise.

DiscoDSP Highlife