What do you want from Reason 13.5 or 14?

[arcy]

In certain - to some folks (me included) very important - regards no other DAW's sequencer is as modern&mighty as Reason's.

How is Reason sequencer more modern&mighty than other DAWs?

1. Blocks

2. audio clips are containers

too litle for a "modern&mighty", no?
folders? midi note chase? mpe? markers? punch-in/punch-out? retrospective record? theese features make a DAW modern and mighty

[Trancit]

1. Blocks

2. audio clips are containers

too litle for a "modern&mighty", no?
folders? midi note chase? mpe? markers? punch-in/punch-out? retrospective record? theese features make a DAW modern and mighty

Exactly... and at the very end there are other DAWs which have containers for audio...

Bitwig´s audio clips are automatically containers as well (whether this should be really counted as an advantage) and Cubase/S1/perhaps Logic (don´t know) have containers for audio clips where you can decide on your own if it´s really an advantage in this moment or if "real audio" in the timeline serves you better...

So Blocks against every implemented feature of others of the last 2 decades Reason is lacking off...
Not really a plus for Reason nor does it make it´s Sequencer more "modern&mighty"

[xbitz]

--
Bitwig´s audio clips are automatically containers as well (whether this should be really counted as an advantage) and Cubase/S1/perhaps Logic (don´t know) have containers for audio clips where you can decide on your own if it´s really an advantage in this moment or if "real audio" in the timeline serves you better...
---

fyi ... Logic uses a two-level packaging system: on one hand, it can merge audio clips, and on the other, it can package multiple tracks into a sub-project-like container similar to Reaper. However, unlike Reaper, Logic doesn’t open a new tab—you have to enter and exit manually, and these packages can’t be aliased, only looped.



The concept is similar to a Windows ZIP container—it packages tracks or regions into a compact unit that you can open and edit internally, but externally it acts as a single block, much like a flattened loop region.

[jens]

In certain - to some folks (me included) very important - regards no other DAW's sequencer is as modern&mighty as Reason's.

How is Reason sequencer more modern&mighty than other DAWs?

1. Blocks

2. audio clips are containers

too litle for a "modern&mighty", no?
folders? midi note chase? mpe? markers? punch-in/punch-out? retrospective record? theese features make a DAW modern and mighty

Please don't take what I wrote out of context in order to push your own agenda.

First of all I wrote "in certain, to some folks [...] very important regards", which is a double restriction that can't be ignored in any further discussion.

Of course Reason is way behind the competition in other regards and personally I'm on the record saying it here for years.

And secondly my post was a specific reply to a very specific claim of yours, which was - just to refresh your memory - the following:

"so the sequencer is a simple multi track, like the old tape"

And again, no that is absolutely not the case. Ironically enough you however then go on to complain about Reason's lack of punch in/out, which is an outdated function that's a leftover
from the age of tape-recording which is not at all required in a modern DAW - certainly not in the slighest in Reason, which has Blocks and containers for audio.


edit: typos

[jens]

Bitwig´s audio clips are automatically containers as well (whether this should be really counted as an advantage) and Cubase/S1/perhaps Logic (don´t know) have containers for audio clips where you can decide on your own if it´s really an advantage in this moment or if "real audio" in the timeline serves you better...

Yes, Bitwig is quite similar to Reason in that regard but unlike the latter Bitwig supports real slip-editing, the lack of which is a real nuisance; so yes, in a way Bitwig is even better.

And energyXT was still even better, because any arbitrary number of individual lanes could play at once, each of which could be individually panned, gain-adjusted, soloed and muted.

It's kind of laughable that twenty years later still no other DAW offers something comparable
(sadly that includes XT2/3).

But no, while Cubendo has audio-parts indeed, which can contain multiple lanes, you can not record into these; you instead have to transform existing tracks, which kind of defeats its purpose.

I'm unsure about Logic, since I'm a Windows-guy.

[arcy]

In certain - to some folks (me included) very important - regards no other DAW's sequencer is as modern&mighty as Reason's.

How is Reason sequencer more modern&mighty than other DAWs?

1. Blocks

2. audio clips are containers

too litle for a "modern&mighty", no?
folders? midi note chase? mpe? markers? punch-in/punch-out? retrospective record? theese features make a DAW modern and mighty

Please don't take what I wrote out of context in order to push your own agenda.

First of all I wrote "in certain, to some folks [...] very important regards", which is a double restriction that can't be ignored in any further discussion.

Of course Reason is way behind the competition in other regards and personally I'm on the record saying it here for years.

And secondly my post was a specific reply to a very specific claim of yours, which was - just to refresh your memory - the following:

"so the sequencer is a simple multi track, like the old tape"

And again, no that is absolutely not the case. Ironically enough you however then go on to complain about Reason's lack of punch in/out, which is an outdated function that's a leftover
from the age of tape-recording which is not at all required in a modern DAW - certainly not in the slighest in Reason, which has Blocks and containers for audio.


edit: typos

when I said "like the old tape" was not to match 1:1 with a real tape and the old recording techiques...it was simply an example of simplicity, where Reason tend to be similar to the real studio workflow than a iper modern midi/audio editor...

About "pushing my agenda", I simply responded to your list of features that makes Reason modern from your POV...I still think that the features that make modern Reason can't be only blocks and audio clip containers even if very usefull. There are a plenty of other features that make modern a DAW, like the ones that I listed.

Anyway, which is your workaround to avoid punch-in in Reason? I would like to let the singer hear his voice previously recorded then hook up the record from the punch-in point, that is very usefull instead of create another track or overwrite and comping...

[spacepluk]

I’d like:
- Better low latency performance (buffer sizes under 64, fix the FX plugin baseline latency)
- Higher FPS for the GUI (at least 60fps please)
- Better MIDI routing
- More comprehensive Remote Script capabilities in line with what Ableton Live offers (patch database, devices/vst, tracks, sequencer data)

[two_tone]

for complex ambient and generative music the reason rack could be a mess...

Nah, Reason's raison d'etre is a creative playground and imho the dsp building blocks everything in reason is constructed from are some of THE og creative dsp, developed mostly by P. Jubel according to community lore. Its potential as a gateway drug in that regard is the reason people will still be using it decades and maybe centuries from now if it and humanity both survive the current orgy of capitalist excess we are all living through. When I saw the Ablton gui for the first time (i was using acid at the time iirc) I was like, "these guys get it, no point in hindering ourselves by trying to mimic irl equipment as a user interface". I think it took less than a decade for me to want to never interact with another 2d Live/Bitwig style interface again in this life, but I know lots of people who feel like the flat interfaces help them listen with their ears instead of their eyes for mixing and post.

Personally the manual audio and cv cable routing (which is really educational fwiw) and general funness-to-look-at of the reason rack has no competition as a creative jungle gym. Combined with the knob per function mixer interface which I also understand some people love and others hate it's SO CLOSE to being something that will never die and print money in the meantime.

The userbase has been collectively BEGGING Props and then RS for the last and easiest 20% of the software they stopped building over a decade ago ever since. In order for all this potential to be usable commercially and generally in modern studio environments it needs a modern audio AND midi sequencer, full VST support, quality freeze/bounce functionality (so the rack can be used to your hearts content on more than 2-3 channels), and probably a few other basic QOL things I'm not thinking of because they're not relevant for me.

That said, the current team that can't stop making more and more devices no one asked for to the exclusion of everything else we needed them to do a decade ago is actually REALLY DAMN GOOD at making those devices and should be kept intact to continue making said devices, preferably for Reason as a DAW. I think some people have trouble taking Props/RS rack devices seriously because the interfaces don't scream "serious tool for professionals" but that's their loss.

But no, generative and semi-generative math music is not a weakness of reason, not by a long shot. You can combine basic building block modular synthesis (thanks to RE developers Kilohearts and Murph for some recent free additions) a la cherry or vcv with diy generative and semi-generative combinators made from logic/math REs made by the chronolgists, lectric panda, robotic bean, etc. Lectric Pandas' stuff deserves a special mention with regard to long form generative experimental stuff and the ammo REs from jiggery-pokery and CV utilities from alien seed tech are golden oldies for integrating stuff like Aggregate or Delta Midi Computer into your racks.

See also more recent CV/player utilities from tonicmint and retouch control. I haven't played with it yet but I'm told the new arpeggiator player is fun; they really should uncripple the environment by implementing VST midi. I don't think the RS midi stuff is as good relative to the competition as their instruments and audio effects but they can definitely compete in their own ecosystem. If you love making generative and/or ambient music you might just fall hard for reason, but it is still mostly a playground.

I bet there's a sequencer guy at steinberg and a midi guy at apple that would move to sweden for a modest raise. While I'm dreaming let's update the "SSL" with VA channel strips from famous consoles as modeled by brainworx and softube that are switchable per channel. Maybe a collab with Waves as they have a lot in common with RS in that they seem out of the loop in terms of their customers and market position but still own some of the best vintage dsp around.

[crimsonwarlock]

I clearly didn't write that, so I fixed it for you

for complex ambient and generative music the reason rack could be a mess...

Nah, Reason's raison d'etre is a creative playground and imho the dsp building blocks everything in reason is constructed from are some of THE og creative dsp, developed mostly by P. Jubel according to community lore. Its potential as a gateway drug in that regard is the reason people will still be using it decades and maybe centuries from now if it and humanity both survive the current orgy of capitalist excess we are all living through. When I saw the Ablton gui for the first time (i was using acid at the time iirc) I was like, "these guys get it, no point in hindering ourselves by trying to mimic irl equipment as a user interface". I think it took less than a decade for me to want to never interact with another 2d Live/Bitwig style interface again in this life, but I know lots of people who feel like the flat interfaces help them listen with their ears instead of their eyes for mixing and post.

Personally the manual audio and cv cable routing (which is really educational fwiw) and general funness-to-look-at of the reason rack has no competition as a creative jungle gym. Combined with the knob per function mixer interface which I also understand some people love and others hate it's SO CLOSE to being something that will never die and print money in the meantime.

The userbase has been collectively BEGGING Props and then RS for the last and easiest 20% of the software they stopped building over a decade ago ever since. In order for all this potential to be usable commercially and generally in modern studio environments it needs a modern audio AND midi sequencer, full VST support, quality freeze/bounce functionality (so the rack can be used to your hearts content on more than 2-3 channels), and probably a few other basic QOL things I'm not thinking of because they're not relevant for me.

That said, the current team that can't stop making more and more devices no one asked for to the exclusion of everything else we needed them to do a decade ago is actually REALLY DAMN GOOD at making those devices and should be kept intact to continue making said devices, preferably for Reason as a DAW. I think some people have trouble taking Props/RS rack devices seriously because the interfaces don't scream "serious tool for professionals" but that's their loss.

But no, generative and semi-generative math music is not a weakness of reason, not by a long shot. You can combine basic building block modular synthesis (thanks to RE developers Kilohearts and Murph for some recent free additions) a la cherry or vcv with diy generative and semi-generative combinators made from logic/math REs made by the chronolgists, lectric panda, robotic bean, etc. Lectric Pandas' stuff deserves a special mention with regard to long form generative experimental stuff and the ammo REs from jiggery-pokery and CV utilities from alien seed tech are golden oldies for integrating stuff like Aggregate or Delta Midi Computer into your racks.

See also more recent CV/player utilities from tonicmint and retouch control. I haven't played with it yet but I'm told the new arpeggiator player is fun; they really should uncripple the environment by implementing VST midi. I don't think the RS midi stuff is as good relative to the competition as their instruments and audio effects but they can definitely compete in their own ecosystem. If you love making generative and/or ambient music you might just fall hard for reason, but it is still mostly a playground.

I bet there's a sequencer guy at steinberg and a midi guy at apple that would move to sweden for a modest raise. While I'm dreaming let's update the "SSL" with VA channel strips from famous consoles as modeled by brainworx and softube that are switchable per channel. Maybe a collab with Waves as they have a lot in common with RS in that they seem out of the loop in terms of their customers and market position but still own some of the best vintage dsp around.

[jens]

About "pushing my agenda", I simply responded to your list of features that makes Reason modern from your POV...

things that make parts of Reason very modern from my point of view. There's a difference.

Anyway, which is your workaround to avoid punch-in in Reason?

I depends - I might just comp. If I would still use Reason, that is.

And Reason is - when it comes to comping itself - really as good as it gets. In fact better than any other DAW I own or have tried in my opinion - albeit: V13 got worse in that regard.

But here's what I often did:

For any specific section I would create a perfect loop in a Block. (This might of course already include comping and other edits.)

And then I would record over these in the Song View in order to create transitions to other sections, slight variations here and there, add fills for the drums, etc.

Because the Blocks are greyed out in the Song View that makes it really easy to see what's going on as the transitions, variations, fills and what have you are the only coloured things then; i.e. you see at a glance where you deviate from the Blocks without ever having to touch the Blocks themselves.
That's utter brilliance and no other DAW offers a similar workflow to the best of my knowledge.

I would like to let the singer hear his voice previously recorded then hook up the record from the punch-in point, that is very usefull instead of create another track or overwrite and comping...

can't be done, I'm afraid. I just experimented a little and tried going out from the Parallel Pre Outs, but even these are muted when recording. Which I find weird. They really seem to have made extra-sure that there's no way of achieving what you want. "Nonono we won't allow that sort of flexibility - flexibility is bad! Otherwise, where will it end? The users doing what they want?"

Having said that: personally I wouldn't expect any positive effect from this even though it might be worth a try, of course.

But typically it will affect the performance negatively if you hear the same line you are trying to perform as it can be quite irritating because it's humanely impossible to react in realtime and do the thing you just hear. You'll always be torn between seeking to anticipate your own next action and vainlessly trying to mimic what happens right now; i.e. you are basically constantly failing at trying to catch up with yourself.

If you get what I mean? I find that hard to explain.

Anyway I think the best way to do it is to really seek to establish what your actual line is/ is supposed to be (and comping can help a lot with this - and of course repeating it over and over again while trying variations (which you can then comp the best bits of later)) and then get really familiar with that line - i.e. your singer could take the comped version home and rehearse it - and then re-record it for an even better and more natural performance.

This again could be recording in song-mode over the Block that contains the comped version.

[eLawnMust]

It should be like old Reason 2.5 or 3... Using NO resources, no need for stupid track 'bouncing' as you could have 50-60 tracks going no need to freeze anything... Old Reason 2.5 & 3 is what I gauge everything against for efficiency, the absolute best demo tunes were made in 2.5 as well... Hell, Propellerhead don't even like anyone even mentioning old Reason... I was banned for good on ReasonTalk just for posting a comment where I mentioned using Reason 3, it was my very first comment...

[aMUSEd]

Get rid of the ridiculous browser that blocks access to the GUI

[D-Fusion]

Get rid of the ridiculous browser that blocks access to the GUI

That is probably their paywall feature so they will remove it in V.14

[hotmitts]

I don't have the latest Reason but from what I hear the browser changes are to get you look at the shop, rather than what you already own ?

[LaLivre]

Browser, player, device, browser, .... I can't hear it anymore, I no longer need it. I finally need workflow updates that at least meet some industry standards from 10 years ago. My goodness, RS, now give us customers at least a few basic new functions, how hard can it be?