Jo, would you be willing to develop a paid wrapper plugin? Something like NanoHost/SaviHost which is just a standalone wrapper that loads a single plugin, but for any format?
I think that could be a winner and resolve this situation too. You could charge a small fee for it and allow it to load any format, 32/64bit.
This wrapper could allow insecure plugins like Synth1 load, yet keep MuLab secure as it is now. Would that work? It works for KV Element.
I don't think there would be too much development as when it loads plugins, they work. Features do not need to be implemented, but could if you feel they are worthy and anyone wanting this would purchase it. Also, allow it to work as a standalone in a similar fashion to NanoHost/SaviHost. What do you think? I would be willing to buy it!
Does anyone still use Synth1?
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3145 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Yet all other DAWs are being built with the less secure option and they keep on working just fine.sl23 wrote: Fri May 30, 2025 8:43 pm Looking at both sides, I'm with Jo on this. Stick to the book, or it starts getting messy. When other plugins start failing, more hacks, then more, and it goes on, then you end up with a mess instead of a rock solid DAW.
There are other reasons that would cause plugin instability under a particular host.
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- KVRist
- 67 posts since 24 Mar, 2005
Had a play with it today. Still sounds good. Great that there was a 64bit version released.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 3145 posts since 28 Mar, 2008 from a Galaxy S7 far far away
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- KVRist
- 143 posts since 5 Oct, 2001
VST2 is a technology developed way before this 'address randomization' thing was implemented in Windows, so noone is asking to recompile VST2s for making it compatibles with the 'new world'.
If one wants to support VST2 in modern environments, it has to come to terms with this obsolescence requirement, or stop supporting it, which I hope is NOT the case.
How supporting it, directly hosting or through 'wrappers' is another thing, btw.
Just 2 cents...
If one wants to support VST2 in modern environments, it has to come to terms with this obsolescence requirement, or stop supporting it, which I hope is NOT the case.
How supporting it, directly hosting or through 'wrappers' is another thing, btw.
Just 2 cents...
Last edited by Cochrane on Sun Jun 01, 2025 6:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRAF
- 13861 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
After giving this good thought i've decided, with some aversion, and only as long as VST2 is still supported, to give in and downgrade MuLab's build setting to DynamicBase:No in order to make MuLab compatible with some old yet popular VST2 plugins like Synth1 and PG8X.
The reason for this decission is that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
The security aspect i was concerned about is much more theoretic than realistic, while making Synth1 & PG8X compatible are real instant advantages for both users and MuLab.
The next M10.0.56 beta will be built with that new setting.
Check it out in all aspects.
I don't expect any change in performance.
Thx again to EvilDragon to find the cause of incompatibility in Synth1 & PG8X.
The reason for this decission is that the advantages outweigh the disadvantages.
The security aspect i was concerned about is much more theoretic than realistic, while making Synth1 & PG8X compatible are real instant advantages for both users and MuLab.
The next M10.0.56 beta will be built with that new setting.
Check it out in all aspects.
I don't expect any change in performance.
Thx again to EvilDragon to find the cause of incompatibility in Synth1 & PG8X.
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
I'm glad you made the right decision 
In the future, I could see a way where you would separate the plugin hosting part to its own process (already possible in several hosts like Reaper, Bitwig, Logic... in some of them it's purely optional), and then you could have a compatibility plugin runner and a modern one, so you could dynamically call them up per plugin if need be.
In the future, I could see a way where you would separate the plugin hosting part to its own process (already possible in several hosts like Reaper, Bitwig, Logic... in some of them it's purely optional), and then you could have a compatibility plugin runner and a modern one, so you could dynamically call them up per plugin if need be.
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- KVRAF
- 5381 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
Mario, do you think it is possible for MuLab to have related MacOS Intel "compatibility with old yet popular VST2 plugins"? They open and play, but show a blank GUI.
(It may be a hopeless Carbon issue.)
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
That seems not possible, Apple removed Carbon API from the OS OUTRIGHT. Meaning the only solution is using an older macOS which still supports Carbon.
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- KVRAF
- 5381 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
My macOS 10.14 supports Carbon, and I can use old VST2 in MuLab 8.33 before the newer Xcode. I can still save presets in M8 to open in M10, so I was wondering if there remained any way to reveal the GUI.EvilDragon wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 6:08 amThat seems not possible, Apple removed Carbon API from the OS OUTRIGHT. Meaning the only solution is using an older macOS which still supports Carbon.
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
Right so Jo would then have to build on Mac with older Xcode, which might be a tough ask.
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- KVRAF
- 5381 posts since 25 Jan, 2014 from The End of The World as We Knowit
Sorry, I was not clear.EvilDragon wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:17 am Right so Jo would then have to build on Mac with older Xcode, which might be a tough ask.
To be more specific, I was wondering if you were familiar with MacOS to know if there was a "simple" command in the current Xcode that could fix the error, "BWndM[141] UTID mismatch 0x000070000 . . . " which happens when I click on any point in the blank GUI. I searched the Xcode Documentation but it's not complete (and I realise a "simple" fix likely does not exist).
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- KVRAF
- 2470 posts since 25 Sep, 2014 from Specific Northwest
Which plugin are you having problems with? I forget when Carbon was fully disappeared by Apple. I believe they kept it around as long as they could for the timer in it, although I don't remember why it was considered better than NSTimer, which has always worked for me. Maybe it was more accurate?
Anyway, if the GUI is attached to the plugin window provided by Mulab via Carbon, it won't error out, it will just not show if Carbon is missing. I'm sure Jo can answer this, but I'm sure at some point, the code to choose between Carbon vs Cocoa was removed from Mulab, so even if Carbon is supported on your OS, the newer versions of Mulab no longer support it.
Welcome to Herding Cats by Apple as they drag people kicking and screaming into the modern age. I wish they didn't fully remove deprecated stuff, but allowed it to bitrot like Windows does.
Anyway, if the GUI is attached to the plugin window provided by Mulab via Carbon, it won't error out, it will just not show if Carbon is missing. I'm sure Jo can answer this, but I'm sure at some point, the code to choose between Carbon vs Cocoa was removed from Mulab, so even if Carbon is supported on your OS, the newer versions of Mulab no longer support it.
Welcome to Herding Cats by Apple as they drag people kicking and screaming into the modern age. I wish they didn't fully remove deprecated stuff, but allowed it to bitrot like Windows does.
I started on Logic 5 with a PowerBook G4 550Mhz. I now have a MacBook Air M1 and it's ~165x faster! So, why is my music not proportionally better? 
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- KVRAF
- 24411 posts since 7 Jan, 2009 from Croatia
I wouldn't know, I'm a Windows guy first and foremostMichael L wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:28 amSorry, I was not clear.EvilDragon wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:17 am Right so Jo would then have to build on Mac with older Xcode, which might be a tough ask.
To be more specific, I was wondering if you were familiar with MacOS to know if there was a "simple" command in the current Xcode that could fix the error, "BWndM[141] UTID mismatch 0x000070000 . . . " which happens when I click on any point in the blank GUI. I searched the Xcode Documentation but it's not complete (and I realise a "simple" fix likely does not exist).
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- KVRAF
- 13861 posts since 24 Jun, 2008 from Europe
"BWndM[141] UTID mismatch" is an error logged by MuLab, not MacOS, meaning that the plugin is trying to do GUI operations, in this case drawing the window, from a non GUI thread, which is not allowed and not supported. There only is 1 single GUI thread.Michael L wrote: Mon Jun 02, 2025 7:28 am To be more specific, I was wondering if you were familiar with MacOS to know if there was a "simple" command in the current Xcode that could fix the error, "BWndM[141] UTID mismatch 0x000070000 . . . "