OK I'm following the advice of Lunch Money and breaking this out of the newbie thread for wider exposure! I'm having a problem using Tracktion rewired to Reason - I think it's a rewire bug in Tracktion, but searching the forum turns up little to no mention of any similar issues. I'm using a powerbook G4 667 with the latest version of OS X, and Reason 2.5. I realise this machine is getting rather long in the tooth, but I don't think it's the cause of the problem. I also realise that Tracktion 2 is coming out soon and it might well eliminate the problem, but it's driving me up the wall now dammit!
Here is what is happening:
I would like to do all my sequencing in one program (Tracktion) for the sake of convenience. To this end I am wiring Reason devices directly to the Reason hardware interface and connecting them to different tracks in Tracktion using the rewire filter. This appears to work as it should and midi notes drawn in Tracktion play the various Reason devices as expected.
The problem comes when two or more notes of the same pitch are drawn immediately one after the other. Only the first one plays. Each subsequent note either emits a tiny click or no noise at all, regardless of how long the notes are. It appears that this only happens when there is more than one track with a rewire filter attached to it, and it is quite unpredictable.
For example, if I have a midi clip beginning on bar 2 in track 1 and another clip starting at bar 4 on track 2, the problem appears. However, if both clips start on the same bar the problem sometimes disappears and all the notes sound properly. Adding in an empty midi clip to the start of the second track doesn't help, and I know it's a good idea to leave a completely empty bar at the very start of the song. Sometimes notes get stuck and keep on sounding as well, but that might be a different issue and it's not such a big deal.
Does anyone have any ideas or suggestions on this (other than wait for Tracktion 2 or buy Ableton Live, which appear to be my current options!)? Shortening notes slightly so they aren't end-to-end does solve the problem, but that's a bitch of a workaround from a musical point of view.
Tracktion/Reason rewire bug? (take 2)
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Like I mentioned in the newbie thread, I'm of no use-- not only do I not use Reason, but I don't own a Mac. 
It seems like strange behaviour, though, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up before. It's like the note-on and note-off are canceling each other out. 
Hopefully some help will arrive shortly. In the meantime, a friendly bump.
Greg
It seems like strange behaviour, though, and I'm surprised it hasn't come up before. It's like the note-on and note-off are canceling each other out. Hopefully some help will arrive shortly. In the meantime, a friendly bump.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
I have the exact same issues. I posted about this at least 6 months ago and got either replies of the 'its a rewire bug' or 'unable to replicate this' flavour. At least I now know I'm not crazyCardinal wrote: The problem comes when two or more notes of the same pitch are drawn immediately one after the other. Only the first one plays. Each subsequent note either emits a tiny click or no noise at all, regardless of how long the notes are. It appears that this only happens when there is more than one track with a rewire filter attached to it, and it is quite unpredictable.
For example, if I have a midi clip beginning on bar 2 in track 1 and another clip starting at bar 4 on track 2, the problem appears. However, if both clips start on the same bar the problem sometimes disappears and all the notes sound properly. Adding in an empty midi clip to the start of the second track doesn't help, and I know it's a good idea to leave a completely empty bar at the very start of the song. Sometimes notes get stuck and keep on sounding as well, but that might be a different issue and it's not such a big deal.
Basically the only workaround I've found for the adjacent note bug is to either trim the first note 1 tick on the end, or trim the second note on the beginning. I don't have another rewire host to test, but I'm guessing this must be a Tracktion bug, not rewire, since so few people have noticed it.
There is no real workaround for the stuck note issue, afaik...
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 18 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
Are you using a Mac as well, Floyd? I wonder if it's a Mac-only bug - that might be another factor in why so few people are experiencing it.
Shortening notes by a tick numerically is a good fix which I hadn't thought of, so thanks for that! It's obviously not an ideal situation, but better than doing it by hand with the draw tool at least.
Shortening notes by a tick numerically is a good fix which I hadn't thought of, so thanks for that! It's obviously not an ideal situation, but better than doing it by hand with the draw tool at least.
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
No, I missed that detail in your post. I'm on winxp, so its a cross-platform bug I guess.Cardinal wrote:Are you using a Mac as well, Floyd? I wonder if it's a Mac-only bug - that might be another factor in why so few people are experiencing it.
Shortening notes by a tick numerically is a good fix which I hadn't thought of, so thanks for that! It's obviously not an ideal situation, but better than doing it by hand with the draw tool at least.
You're welcome. Even with the bugs Tracktion is actually pretty good for Rewire. I can't even imagine that some hosts see each rewire channel as two seperate mono tracks! Argh what a hassle that would be...
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Your problem is caused (afaik) by the note-off of your first note coming just after the note-on of your second..
Cubase VST offera a setting called "shorten notes to avoid congestion" designed to avoid exactly this phenomenon.. it simply automatically shortens all notes by a user defined number of ticks..
I found that, when running a vst inside Cubase, this setting could be very small (maybe not needed at all? not sure) but when sending MIDI out to eg: the internal synth on a sblive card, running in XP on an underpowered machine, I find the setting need to be quite large.. basically, the worse the MIDI timing, the higher that number needs to be..
If the unshortened notes play ok when triggering a vst, that would imply that MIDI timing over rewire is less accurate than that of vsts.. which is interesting, even if it doesn't help you much!
Cubase VST offera a setting called "shorten notes to avoid congestion" designed to avoid exactly this phenomenon.. it simply automatically shortens all notes by a user defined number of ticks..
I found that, when running a vst inside Cubase, this setting could be very small (maybe not needed at all? not sure) but when sending MIDI out to eg: the internal synth on a sblive card, running in XP on an underpowered machine, I find the setting need to be quite large.. basically, the worse the MIDI timing, the higher that number needs to be..
If the unshortened notes play ok when triggering a vst, that would imply that MIDI timing over rewire is less accurate than that of vsts.. which is interesting, even if it doesn't help you much!
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
That is interesting platinumears - thanks. Perhaps T2 will contain a similar feature (?...Beno?...)
In the meantime I would just like to say that - having "left" Tracktion to go over to Live 4 - and having now returned
because Live 4 is such a disappointment - that getting Live 4 isn't your answer. Wait for T2.
The reason I prefer Tracktion over Live as a ReWire host (for Reason, like you Cardinal) is as follows:
In Live 4 you need two channel strips - the MIDI out configured to the Reason device, and the Audio return coming back from the relevant channels of Reason's harware interface. You can then add and automate VST effects etc on to the audio return track in the arrangement view in Live. All surprisingly complex for a program used as a ReWire host by so many Reason users. Plus, the CPU hit of each VST effect will probably be at least 50% higher than in Tracktion, even if you don't use Tracktion's freeze function. In other words, you will need to bounce down to audio pretty damn quickly or your computer will fall over.
In Tracktion the same process is a breeze - as Cardinal has explained it above you simply wire your Reason devices to its interfact to bring them back and perform all your sequencing and mixing in Tracktion. Only one track for each instrument too, rather than seperate MIDI/audio tracks. So you can sequence the MIDI as a MIDI clip, add a ReWire filter and any VST effects to the same track, and automate straight on top of the MIDI sequence. SO MUCH easier and more logical than Live's cumbersome approach.
In the meantime I would just like to say that - having "left" Tracktion to go over to Live 4 - and having now returned
because Live 4 is such a disappointment - that getting Live 4 isn't your answer. Wait for T2.The reason I prefer Tracktion over Live as a ReWire host (for Reason, like you Cardinal) is as follows:
In Live 4 you need two channel strips - the MIDI out configured to the Reason device, and the Audio return coming back from the relevant channels of Reason's harware interface. You can then add and automate VST effects etc on to the audio return track in the arrangement view in Live. All surprisingly complex for a program used as a ReWire host by so many Reason users. Plus, the CPU hit of each VST effect will probably be at least 50% higher than in Tracktion, even if you don't use Tracktion's freeze function. In other words, you will need to bounce down to audio pretty damn quickly or your computer will fall over.
In Tracktion the same process is a breeze - as Cardinal has explained it above you simply wire your Reason devices to its interfact to bring them back and perform all your sequencing and mixing in Tracktion. Only one track for each instrument too, rather than seperate MIDI/audio tracks. So you can sequence the MIDI as a MIDI clip, add a ReWire filter and any VST effects to the same track, and automate straight on top of the MIDI sequence. SO MUCH easier and more logical than Live's cumbersome approach.
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 18 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
Thanks Platinumears, your explanation makes sense. It will be interesting to see if this happens with Tracktion 2.
It doesn't happen when I use a VST synth. It also didn't happen when I demo'd Live, which might be surprising considering the heavy CPU requirements and my underpowered computer. In fact Live performed pretty well in general. Of course it would be easy to push it too far, but I don't intend to use many VSTs due to having Reason (which is a very efficient program).
Headquest, I totally agree with you about the way Tracktion handles rewire. It's great having everything on one track, and is a key reason why I have been so keen to get this problem sorted and stick with the program. For now it's a waiting game then. I gather there are a few people doing that just now
Thanks for all your replies.
It doesn't happen when I use a VST synth. It also didn't happen when I demo'd Live, which might be surprising considering the heavy CPU requirements and my underpowered computer. In fact Live performed pretty well in general. Of course it would be easy to push it too far, but I don't intend to use many VSTs due to having Reason (which is a very efficient program).
Headquest, I totally agree with you about the way Tracktion handles rewire. It's great having everything on one track, and is a key reason why I have been so keen to get this problem sorted and stick with the program. For now it's a waiting game then. I gather there are a few people doing that just now
Thanks for all your replies.
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
umm a pop in the dark here but if u make the first midi note shorter so there is a gap between the 2 notes dose this help?
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 18 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
lol yeah it does, but sometimes that isn't what you want. For instance the bassline I'm currently working on just doesn't sound the same with gaps between the notes. Also, I have a midi keyboard and I like to record exactly what I play - I don't want to have to change it because of a software glitch. Sometimes it glitches while playing too, which just sounds awful and throws me off. Making notes a tiny bit shorter using the method Floyd suggested is acceptable, but it's still a workaround. What I really wanted was a way to stop the problem altogether, and it seems there isn't one. It's hardly the end of the world though!
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- KVRAF
- 2582 posts since 24 Apr, 2003 from Canada
Hmm, seems to me if you are playing live exclusively it must be like a 1 in a 1000 chance that you will play one note that ends on the exact same tick the next note starts. That or you are the 'human quantizer' or somethingCardinal wrote:lol yeah it does, but sometimes that isn't what you want. For instance the bassline I'm currently working on just doesn't sound the same with gaps between the notes. Also, I have a midi keyboard and I like to record exactly what I play - I don't want to have to change it because of a software glitch. Sometimes it glitches while playing too, which just sounds awful and throws me off. Making notes a tiny bit shorter using the method Floyd suggested is acceptable, but it's still a workaround. What I really wanted was a way to stop the problem altogether, and it seems there isn't one. It's hardly the end of the world though!
For me, the problem is when quantizing note lengths these kind of perfect adjacent notes are created. Then I have to correct each by hand. argh!
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- KVRAF
- 10815 posts since 26 Nov, 2004 from UK
oops sorry all should have read the hole thread insted of fliking through, still it dose work so u can spend loads of time playing with envelope release then u will be abel to let go of the key sooner or draw shorter notes in. soz thats the only work around i can come up with intill the bug is termanted
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- KVRer
- Topic Starter
- 18 posts since 8 Dec, 2004
Heh, I'm not playing live exclusively, I just meant to say that I do get the glitch sometimes when playing live as well, and that's when it's at its most annoying. I'm not the human quantizer, as cool as that would be! I draw and quantize notes with the mouse as well, and it happens then too.floyd wrote:Hmm, seems to me if you are playing live exclusively it must be like a 1 in a 1000 chance that you will play one note that ends on the exact same tick the next note starts. That or you are the 'human quantizer' or something
For me, the problem is when quantizing note lengths these kind of perfect adjacent notes are created. Then I have to correct each by hand. argh!