Software vs. Analog in 2025 – Has the Balance Shifted?

[pdxindy]

A hardware synth is a whole instrument. Some of them are a joy to put hands to and explore music with and that matters to the results for many people.

My setup is also a joy to put hands to and explore music

Just because your setup works for you, doesn't mean it works for someone else.

Anytime someone posts examples of why they like hardware and/or their setup, you repeat your setup as if you liking your setup, somehow negates what they like.

[ghettosynth]

Which humans? You can fool some of the people some of the time, and all of that. Ears and perception can be trained with respect to specific phenomenon, sometimes unintentionally.

This is true, but not necessarily simple, or even relevant. I’m one of those “trained” people, though I don’t consider myself to have above average hearing.

The point is, however, that you can't know when it is for someone else. Now, regarding training, I'm sure that your ears are highly trained. However, I gave you a specific example on purpose. Being able to detect records slightly of of phase is something that DJs get specific training on. It happens when you cue in one ear and listen in the other. It makes you highly sensitive to these phase differences. Maybe you can detect them, maybe you can't. However, I would bet that if you didn't DJ enough in the 90s on vinyl that you were playing out that you can't do as well as people who did. I can't do it as well as DJs that have been doing it for decades. I have had many highly trained musician friends who were not DJs who could not hear it either.

It reminds me of a guy who would come into the place I worked. ...<snip long story>

Great story, but it supports my point. He, either permanently, or temporarily, had trained his perception regarding that one particular perspective and chose to support that POV rather than accept yours, which his perception was not as sensitive to.

I say temporarily because I think that this is something that many of us have done to some extent when we are buying something. It's somehow derived from fear of buying the wrong thing. We hear dramatic differences in the moment of competing products. Now, they might be real, they might be bias. After some time, this perception goes away. My TV is cheap and has the typical weak blacks in the corner. It really bothered me at first, I don't even notice it now.

I guess this is my long winded, blow hardy way of saying that nothing is “perfect,” and that as an artist you can only make aesthetic choices based on your own taste, which is subjective.

No, your taste as expressed is subjective, but it's possible that there is something more than taste in perception. That you can't measure what this is doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

If we can measure a difference, then we can assert that there is one. If we cannot measure a difference, then we can only assert that a difference was not detected up to the limitations of what we measured. Sometimes that can be damning, sometimes it's not as clear cut as you might think.

Whenever these kinds of discussions come up, I like to post the McGurk effect video. This demonstrates one way that our sense interact. Now, this isn't just to say that we are delusional about wooden end cheeks, we are, but also to say that perception is a tricky black box and what you perceive may not be universal. Note how dramatic this effect is. Even if you've seen it before, your brain will still do the inference.

[IvyBirds]

If I imagine a live performance setup, I would pick hardware. Let's see... a couple Elektron boxes, a couple analog synth modules, a Linnstrument and a Mic for vocals. There is no laptop with software synths/drum machine and midi controller(s) that can come close to the sound and hands on capabilities of that setup.

Sure there is, you drive the laptop running gig Performer with the Linnstrunent and have way more Polyphony and options for Timbres as well as far more available tracks for sequencing and can have way more hands on control configured exactly how you want all while spending thousands less

There is no laptop/midi controller combo that can match the hands on agility and fluidity of working realtime with the Elektron sequencer.

And that's awesome if you like the Elektron Sequencer but many people even hardware fanatics despise it, you also indicated you would use a Linnstrunent which of course is useless for those Elektron boxes as they don't support MPE

then there is no software drum machine that comes close to the sound of the Elektron Rytm. There's no software option I've come across that's even remotely close.

Awesome if you like that sound use that sound, if you can live with a $2400 drum machine that has a 12 track sequencer but inexplicably is limited to just 8 voices and has stuff drum pads that people complain about for finger drumming, if you can live with a pathetic 1 LFO per track when even other Elektron boxes have more, have fun

If you like Gig Performer, that's fine, but that doesn't mean it comes anywhere close to meeting someone else's interests.

And yet you boldly declared that your hypothetical setup can't be matched with software and while you might feel that way, many others would find it to be a disaster and a giant step backwards and extremely limited

[IvyBirds]

A hardware synth is a whole instrument. Some of them are a joy to put hands to and explore music with and that matters to the results for many people.

My setup is also a joy to put hands to and explore music

Just because your setup works for you, doesn't mean it works for someone else.

Anytime someone posts examples of why they like hardware and/or their setup, you repeat your setup as if you liking your setup, somehow negates what they like.

Actually that's not true, people are not just posting examples of why they like their setup they are making bold declarations that their system is awesome and software can't touch it

If all people said was I like this setup because it works for me and here is why it works for me that is awesome, but they don't do that they make incorrect assumptions and statements in a generic way about things that software supposedly can't do

[SoftSynthLover99]

The 3rd Wave is also 4 part multi-timbral. Someone could combine the 3rd Wave with an Elektron box and make whole compositions with just those two.

And when you do that you get 6 voices of Polyphony per timbre, or you know you could just run multiple instances of a VA or Wavetable plugin on a computer and get way more than that for thousands less

I don't have a 3rd Wave so cannot really comment much on it. I'd probably buy a Nina before a 3rd Wave. Nina is also 4 part multi-timbral and half the polyphony (12 voices). 12 voices is enough because 2-3 parts would likely be mono anyway.

And yes, someone could just run a computer with softsynths. But that someone might happen to love the sound of the 3rd Wave or the Nina or other analog or hybrid synth.

And that's awesome but then why are you talking about things like polyphony and multi-timbrality which software plugins will always blow out of the water? Which is it? Is it the sound or the polyphony? Is it the sound or the Multi-timbrality?

If someone just uses the 3rd wave with all 24 voices of polyphony you have to combine multiple software plugin instances to achieve what that 1 hardware synth can do. So if we are just talking about 1 synth vs 1 synth the 3rd wave has the vast majority of software plugins beat.

You can't challenge someone to a fight then show up with 4 of your buddies and call it a fair fight

You are right it's not a fair fight because when it comes to polyphony software running on a laptop will always win

3rd wave is 24 voice polyphony and the Waldorf Microwave 1 plugin you mentioned as an alternative is 8 voice polyphony and can't even do virtual analog. So where does software win in this particular case?

Stacking sounds or running multiple instances don't count because I can also have infinite polyphony by stacking the 3rd wave as many times as I want. So I mean as a 1v1 comparison how does the Microwave Plugin beat the 3rd wave?

[IvyBirds]

Behringer Wave and the Microwave plugin both only have 8 voices of polyphony vs the 24 voices on the 3rd wave and can't do virtual analog like the 3rd wave.

The advantage of the 24 voices of Polyphony on the 3rd Wave is that it's multi timbral. You are limited to four parts and when you do that you get just 6 voices each. Using plugins you can easily exceed that in both multi timbrality and polyphony. If you want PPG Wave Sounds you can load up 6 instances and have six part multi-timbral sounds with a total of 48 voices

True but I could also layer the 3rd wave and have infinite polyphony and multi timbrality.

Sure if you own multiples of it if you want more than 24 you would need to buy another. Now if you want to record it to your DAW in a multitrack fashion awesome but then you can do that with plugins also and do so more efficiently and faster as they don't need to render in real time

And the 3rd wave has 70+ knobs and buttons all assigned to synth parameters for immediate access and sound design.

And? That's all?

You really can't recreate that hardware workflow with a midi controller.

Sure you can

None are available with that many knobs/buttons/sliders to even get you a fraction of the way there.

Sure there are you can have 192 knobs, 64 faders, and 128 buttons on a single $150 controller

The most you'd get is maybe 8+8 on a single midi controller like a Keylab vs 70+ knobs and buttons on a single dedicated hardware synth the 3rd wave.

Nope not even close

So for synths I much rather have 70 knobs and buttons to work with instead of just 8 knobs/sliders that I have to manually assign myself and memorize what each knob/slider is assigned to

So would I, but I would also prefer to have hundreds of knobs, faders, and buttons that I can configure however I want and that can be used on multiple synths without having to learn a new layout from scratch over and over and over again

There is no one that wants hands on control of parameters more than me, which is why I find predefined layouts and limited controls on most hardware synths to be so limiting, and why I am willing to invest a little bit of time and effort to make my own custom control surfaces and GUI's

Now I get the fact that other people don't and that's awesome, if hands on control for patch design is just not that important for you, and you can't be bothered awesome. Then deal with whatever control surface you are presented with from the manufacturer and pay thousands more for it

As for me I want my own custom control surface. I want to use knobs for some things and faders and buttons for others. Arranged exactly how I want them.

But as always YMMV

[IvyBirds]

3rd wave is 24 voice polyphony and the Waldorf Microwave 1 plugin you mentioned as an alternative is 8 voice polyphony and can't even do virtual analog. So where does software win in this particular case?

Stacking sounds or running multiple instances don't count because I can also have infinite polyphony by stacking the 3rd wave as many times as I want. So I mean as a 1v1 comparison how does the Microwave Plugin beat the 3rd wave?

Where does software win? If you want 32 voices of Polyphony available at the same time to play live how do you do that on the 3rd Wave? I can easily do that with the Microwave Plugin by setting a split with four instances. Software wins the polyphony game every time

If I want 6 part multi-timbrality with the Microwave I can just load 6 instances each with a different timbre, can't do that with the 3rd Wave, and each one will have 8 voices of Polyphony for 48 voices total again software wins

And you can't stack the 3rd Wave as many times as you want unless you want to spend tens of thousands of dollars doing so

And if I want to play VA sounds along with the Microwave again not a problem what kind of VA do you want? I have a ton of options again software wins

Now if you are talking about having the need to play the exact sound of the 3rd Wave with the exact SEM software model that's running in the computer of the 3rd Wave awesome use it and if you want to drop $10 grand or more to get more than 24 voices of Polyphony again awesome have fun, as for me I have a ton of options for Oberheim/SEM VA sounds

[SoftSynthLover99]

Behringer Wave and the Microwave plugin both only have 8 voices of polyphony vs the 24 voices on the 3rd wave and can't do virtual analog like the 3rd wave.

The advantage of the 24 voices of Polyphony on the 3rd Wave is that it's multi timbral. You are limited to four parts and when you do that you get just 6 voices each. Using plugins you can easily exceed that in both multi timbrality and polyphony. If you want PPG Wave Sounds you can load up 6 instances and have six part multi-timbral sounds with a total of 48 voices

None are available with that many knobs/buttons/sliders to even get you a fraction of the way there.

Sure there are you can have 192 knobs, 64 faders, and 128 buttons on a single $150 controller

BS. No midi keyboard exist with anything close to those specs especially for $150. If I am wrong or mistaken please show me what midi controller has 192 dedicated knobs, 64 faders and 128 buttons.

The only thing I remember seeing even remotely close is the dedicated diva midi controller back in 2012

[SoftSynthLover99]

3rd wave is 24 voice polyphony and the Waldorf Microwave 1 plugin you mentioned as an alternative is 8 voice polyphony and can't even do virtual analog. So where does software win in this particular case?

Stacking sounds or running multiple instances don't count because I can also have infinite polyphony by stacking the 3rd wave as many times as I want. So I mean as a 1v1 comparison how does the Microwave Plugin beat the 3rd wave?

Where does software win? If you want 32 voices of Polyphony available at the same time to play live how do you do that on the 3rd Wave? I can easily do that with the Microwave Plugin by setting a split with four instances. Software wins the polyphony game every time

I could sync it up with my Moog One 16 voice for a total of 40 voices instead of 32 if I truly needed more than 24 voices (which in a live setting I probably wouldn't). And that would be one hell of a synth stack I would prefer over anything in a laptop personally.

Hell.... I may have just sold myself on buying a 3rd wave with that thought

1-2 solid hardware poly synths and a Nord Stage 4 73 compact would cover everything I need in a live keyboard rig. And I would be sacrificing absolutely nothing with that setup.

[whassup]

Ah, there it is... Flashback

[pdxindy]

And that's awesome if you like the Elektron Sequencer but many people even hardware fanatics despise it, you also indicated you would use a Linnstrunent which of course is useless for those Elektron boxes as they don't support MPE

That some people like and some dislike the Elektron sequencer is irrelevant to the point that there is no software/midi controller combo that is comparable.

Also you are incorrect. Both the Analog Four/Keys and the Digitone can be played with MPE.

[IvyBirds]

3rd wave is 24 voice polyphony and the Waldorf Microwave 1 plugin you mentioned as an alternative is 8 voice polyphony and can't even do virtual analog. So where does software win in this particular case?

Stacking sounds or running multiple instances don't count because I can also have infinite polyphony by stacking the 3rd wave as many times as I want. So I mean as a 1v1 comparison how does the Microwave Plugin beat the 3rd wave?

Where does software win? If you want 32 voices of Polyphony available at the same time to play live how do you do that on the 3rd Wave? I can easily do that with the Microwave Plugin by setting a split with four instances. Software wins the polyphony game every time

I could sync it up with my Moog One 16 voice for a total of 40 voices instead of 32 if I truly needed more than 24 voices (which in a live setting I probably wouldn't). And that would be one hell of a synth stack I would prefer over anything in a laptop personally.

And yet you would still have less polyphony than you could have with software and wouldn't be spending $15,000 for it

But by all means tell me again why dropping $15 grand to get 40 voices of Polyphony and/or 8 part multi-timbrality is supposed to be impressive. Make sure however that you enjoy the voice stealing if you do that with 8 part multi-timbrality and want to play 7th chords with sustain on the release

But impressive how you want to move the goal posts now

Hell.... I may have just sold myself on buying a 3rd wave with that thought

1-2 solid hardware poly synths and a Nord Stage 4 73 compact would cover everything I need in a live keyboard rig. And I would be sacrificing absolutely nothing with that setup.

Awesome so you want to drop $20 grand and carry around 100 pounds of Synths to the gig

Have fun and remember 2/3 of that setup is all software, but at least with the Nord you would have some actual polyphony, amazing how you had to add a software synth with actual polyphony to not be sacrificing anything

[SoftSynthLover99]

Ah, there it is... Flashback

I was so hyped and thought synth focused midi controllers would definitely be a thing by now lol. Sadly the midi keyboard market has pretty much stagnated

[IvyBirds]

And that's awesome if you like the Elektron Sequencer but many people even hardware fanatics despise it, you also indicated you would use a Linnstrunent which of course is useless for those Elektron boxes as they don't support MPE

That some people like and some dislike the Elektron sequencer is irrelevant to the point that there is no software/midi controller combo that is comparable.

Also you are incorrect. Both the Analog Four/Keys and the Digitone can be played with MPE.

When did they add Polyphonic Aftertouch or anything else MPE related to the Digitone or Analog keys? I can find zero information about either online, the only thing you can find is people lamenting that it doesn't have it even on the official Elektron forums from actual users

Doing a search in the manual of either for MPE doesn't return any hits either

The official product page in the website lists the following modulation options.

"Modulation setup for pitch bend, velocity, key track, mod wheel, breath control, aftertouch"

https://www.elektron.se/explore/digitone-ii

Those are all channel and standard MIDI CCs certainly not polyphonic expression and you are limited to just 4 destinations on the Mod Matrix which again would render MPE useless

People on various forums also lament that it doesn't listen to all incoming MIDI channels which again renders MPE useless

So if they have added MPE it's weird no one knows about it, and even weirder that even Elektron doesn't market it as such and says the exact opposite

[SoftSynthLover99]

3rd wave is 24 voice polyphony and the Waldorf Microwave 1 plugin you mentioned as an alternative is 8 voice polyphony and can't even do virtual analog. So where does software win in this particular case?

Stacking sounds or running multiple instances don't count because I can also have infinite polyphony by stacking the 3rd wave as many times as I want. So I mean as a 1v1 comparison how does the Microwave Plugin beat the 3rd wave?

Where does software win? If you want 32 voices of Polyphony available at the same time to play live how do you do that on the 3rd Wave? I can easily do that with the Microwave Plugin by setting a split with four instances. Software wins the polyphony game every time

I could sync it up with my Moog One 16 voice for a total of 40 voices instead of 32 if I truly needed more than 24 voices (which in a live setting I probably wouldn't). And that would be one hell of a synth stack I would prefer over anything in a laptop personally.

And yet you would still have less polyphony than you could have with software and wouldn't be spending $15,000 for it

But by all means tell me again why dropping $15 grand to get 40 voices of Polyphony and/or 8 part multi-timbrality is supposed to be impressive. Make sure however that you enjoy the voice stealing if you do that with 8 part multi-timbrality and want to play 7th chords with sustain on the release

But impressive how you want to move the goal posts now

Hell.... I may have just sold myself on buying a 3rd wave with that thought

1-2 solid hardware poly synths and a Nord Stage 4 73 compact would cover everything I need in a live keyboard rig. And I would be sacrificing absolutely nothing with that setup.

Awesome so you want to drop $20 grand and carry around 100 pounds of Synths to the gig

Have fun and remember 2/3 of that setup is all software, but at least with the Nord you would have some actual polyphony, amazing how you had to add a software synth with actual polyphony to not be sacrificing anything

Talk about moving the goal post lol you've moved to an entirely different football field. First it was software always wins the polyphony battle. Then you're shown a hardware synth that has more polyphony than the software synth you suggested as an alternative, so you move the goal post to running multiple instances in a live setting with gig performer. Ok fine. But when I show you I can sync 2 poly synths together for more polyphony you move the goal post again to the price so now 40 voices of polyphony is not impressive to you since it can be achieved with hardware (although before you suggested 32 voices was more impressive than 24).

You are indeed the master of moving the goal post sir I think you just enjoy being contrarian to anything related to hardware no matter how disingenuous you have to be to do so.

You'll figure out a way to make an 8 voice software synth like the Microwave 1 seem superior to a 24 voice hybrid analog synth with lots of extra features. You'll figure out a way to trivialize extremely cool features on hardware just to reinforce your ideology that software is always better. I saw you earlier in the thread talk about how cool it was to use the Softube Model 84 (great sounding soft synth) even though it has 1 oscillator and is super simple with 6 voice polyphony. Yet you will completely rip apart hardware with far superior sound and specs as if they are ancient devices with 2 note polyphony and half an oscillator.

But yet you want to be perceived as honest only fighting back against hardware evangelist as you say? Please. You are the most biased of any hardware or software enthusiast in the thread.