Real amps vs modelling and plugin amps

[nix808]

if saturation is a parameter,
it could be modulated?
I have built 2 plugin amps,
one has saturation,
I could use amp or something else(pitch?) to modulate it

[guitarzan]

…Came across an interesting comment on digital gain on this reddit. https://www.reddit.com/r/Guitar/comment ... _sims_and/


NickiChaos
“I don't like digital amps when using any kind of gain.The gain saturation on a tube amp peaks and valleys as the signal moves through it which sounds very natural to me.
With digital, there's no peaks and valleys in gain saturation. It just sounds gunned all the time and as result, just sounds sterile “…

With algorithmic amp models I think it is still the fact that most do not model the power amp section well at all. Even the ones that have “Sag” controls usually produce nothing like sag. There was one algorithm based sim developed by a KVR member that had really nice dynamic sag (viewtopic.php?t=545175), but then comes the other part that is never fully modeled and that is the output transformer, which really adds a lot to the whole “amp experience” when they are really working. Like a ringing… almost a subtle chorus effect. No algorithm physical model even touches on it as far as I know.

The amp profilers (like ToneX) capture sag and transformer perfectly, but I still don’t like playing any of them beyond the clean side of the verge of breakup point, and I didn’t know why for a long time… when I heard recorded examples it always sounded excellent, but when I’m playing I still find even moderate overdrive grating.

Recently on The Gear Page site there has been circulating a test that clearly illustrates that there is still significant aliasing going on in ToneX (and other profilers I presume), so while it has improved to the point where I don’t instantly hear the aliasing, I think it is still what bothers me with ToneX when overdriven beyond the lightest amount.

I love the tone and feel right up to the point where sag is beginning and the transformer is singing, but not one notch above that point, so still on the clean side.

So for me, I’m exploring a hybrid approach… pedals before and after ToneX… ToneX as the core tone, but other pedals for more grunt, further sag. Works good, but that means there’s still a lot of room for improvement for digital amp simulators. They work great for getting a good recorded tone (as they have from the beginning), but they still lack in live performance compared to a vintage amp in my opinion.

Profilers will probably get there soon though. Algorithmic physical modelers aren’t really any closer than they were decades ago feel-wise, they still aren’t even trying to model the right stuff to ever get them there IMHO.

[Naillerz78]

With algorithmic amp models I think it is still the fact that most do not model the power amp section well at all. Even the ones that have “Sag” controls usually produce nothing like sag. There was one algorithm based sim developed by a KVR member that had really nice dynamic sag (viewtopic.php?t=545175), but then comes the other part that is never fully modeled and that is the output transformer, which really adds a lot to the whole “amp experience” when they are really working. Like a ringing… almost a subtle chorus effect. No algorithm physical model even touches on it as far as I know.

The amp profilers (like ToneX) capture sag and transformer perfectly, but I still don’t like playing any of them beyond the clean side of the verge of breakup point, and I didn’t know why for a long time… when I heard recorded examples it always sounded excellent, but when I’m playing I still find even moderate overdrive grating.

Recently on The Gear Page site there has been circulating a test that clearly illustrates that there is still significant aliasing going on in ToneX (and other profilers I presume), so while it has improved to the point where I don’t instantly hear the aliasing, I think it is still what bothers me with ToneX when overdriven beyond the lightest amount.

I love the tone and feel right up to the point where sag is beginning and the transformer is singing, but not one notch above that point, so still on the clean side.

Agree with all of that!
Have not tried Tonex beyond the nano stomp pedal version thru an amp at a guitar shop. I’d heard great things but was skeptical. I could still hear the digital qualities of fuzzy bass and high end fizz clearly . I quickly binned it as an option for purchase.

So for me, I’m exploring a hybrid approach… pedals before and after ToneX… ToneX as the core tone, but other pedals for more grunt, further sag. Works good, but that means there’s still a lot of room for improvement for digital amp simulators. They work great for getting a good recorded tone (as they have from the beginning), but they still lack in live performance compared to a vintage amp in my opinion.

Profilers will probably get there soon though. Algorithmic physical modelers aren’t really any closer than they were decades ago feel-wise, they still aren’t even trying to model the right stuff to ever get them there IMHO.

Agree. This video below illustrates exactly the differences I hear and it’s like night and day for me.



One sounds “rich” with a nice round bass in it, the overdrive /gain is sweet as, the sound we know and love ,as it’s supposed to… the other sound ..

So this defence of sims as “user error/both must be tweaked in the mix /u lack production skills” is BS. they are almost two completely different sounds to begin with tbh.

[Naillerz78]

. They work great for getting a good recorded tone (as they have from the beginning), but they still lack in live performance compared to a vintage amp in my opinion.

Profilers will probably get there soon though. Algorithmic physical modelers aren’t really any closer than they were decades ago feel-wise, they still aren’t even trying to model the right stuff to ever get them there IMHO.

Yep. 110%!
So what is still missing currently with profilers ?

[guitarzan]

Aliasing, they need to further minimize it whatever it takes to do it. I’m pretty sure they’ll get there.

[Naillerz78]

Aliasing, they need to further minimize it whatever it takes to do it. I’m pretty sure they’ll get there.

Ps thanks for the info on the Swanky Amp also very interesting

[zerocrossing]

Aliasing, they need to further minimize it whatever it takes to do it. I’m pretty sure they’ll get there.

I just did a survey of all the distortion boxes and high gain amps in Amplitude, and it was fascinating how uneven it is. Many show no signs of aliasing at all, some are pretty bad. I just ran a sine wave from Massive and played a C7 into it and used the pitch wheel to bend it up. No cabs. Even amps in premium packs had a wide range of quality. For instance, the Mesa Mark IIC+ Lead channel? Aliases like a stuck pig. Mark III Lead channel? None. Satch VM? Aliasing galore. Satch Distortion? Clean. I wasn't taking notes, but I should do it again and make a list. I didn't check to see if the Tonex stuff aliased, but I do remember noticing the NAM plugin did.

[YnJ]

I guess dirt pedals suffers from the same issues as amps when modelled. I have STL Tones AmpHub, I only have a few of the amps and dirt pedals, you can try everything out for 14 days or something like that though. I got a few pedals and amps on sale, I stopped using money on it though, after I compared the different pedals with eachother and ended up making them sound exactly the same just tweaking the gain and tone controls, nothing else. I remember liking the "Frantic Cobra", as it had this Marshall-ish quality to it, more than the Marshalls they have for some reason. When I got an actual Framus Cobra I went back to check it out again, and it had absolutely nothing in common with the actual amp, apart from the UI which was very much the same. Ironically the free stuff, the cab section and the post effects are quite good for a multiple amp plugin, the stuff you have to pay for, pedals and amps, not so much

It can be done better though, Mercurial Ampbox, only has a few dirt pedals, they actually sound and work differently from eachother though. They are also released as free single pedal plugins, and in my opinion some of the best dirt pedal plugins you can get. They're not like the actual pedals, at least they don't sound the same and to some degree sound similar to the pedals they are modelled on though. No plugin or digital model of a dirt pedal comes close to even the cheapest dirt pedals though

[zerocrossing]

No plugin or digital model of a dirt pedal comes close to even the cheapest dirt pedals though

I've returned a lot of pedals that I've tried that I didn't find to be any better than models. The only ones I kept was an old Blackstar HT-5 Dual Tube Distortion, mostly because it's old, not worth much, and sounds pretty good, and more recently, a B.K, Butler Tube Driver. I guess I also kept a heavily modded Cry Baby, but that was more because I wanted the convenience of being able to have access to a wah at all times in all presets.

I could probably even do Tonex captures of the HT-5 and Tube Driver and get rid of the floor clutter, but I'm too lazy. I also kind of like having a pedal that's hand made by the original designer.

[zerocrossing]

if saturation is a parameter,
it could be modulated?
I have built 2 plugin amps,
one has saturation,
I could use amp or something else(pitch?) to modulate it

I don't see why not. A tremolo is just modulating gain. Put it in front of an amp that's on the edge of breakup and there you go. I guess you could have it track pitch. That could be cool.

[Uncle E]

I just did a survey of all the distortion boxes and high gain amps in Amplitude, and it was fascinating how uneven it is. Many show no signs of aliasing at all, some are pretty bad. I just ran a sine wave from Massive and played a C7 into it and used the pitch wheel to bend it up. No cabs. Even amps in premium packs had a wide range of quality. For instance, the Mesa Mark IIC+ Lead channel? Aliases like a stuck pig. Mark III Lead channel? None. Satch VM? Aliasing galore. Satch Distortion? Clean. I wasn't taking notes, but I should do it again and make a list. I didn't check to see if the Tonex stuff aliased, but I do remember noticing the NAM plugin did.

Yes, would be great if you can list everything! I can send it to IK, if you don't mind.

Also, if you'd like to run a test like that for Tonex, I can send you a license for the Boutique Overdrives expansion.

[zerocrossing]

I just did a survey of all the distortion boxes and high gain amps in Amplitude, and it was fascinating how uneven it is. Many show no signs of aliasing at all, some are pretty bad. I just ran a sine wave from Massive and played a C7 into it and used the pitch wheel to bend it up. No cabs. Even amps in premium packs had a wide range of quality. For instance, the Mesa Mark IIC+ Lead channel? Aliases like a stuck pig. Mark III Lead channel? None. Satch VM? Aliasing galore. Satch Distortion? Clean. I wasn't taking notes, but I should do it again and make a list. I didn't check to see if the Tonex stuff aliased, but I do remember noticing the NAM plugin did.

Yes, would be great if you can list everything! I can send it to IK, if you don't mind.

Also, if you'd like to run a test like that for Tonex, I can send you a license for the Boutique Overdrives expansion.

Sure. That sounds fun. I’m busy this weekend, but I can get to it on Monday and have it by Tuesday. It will take longer if you want recordings of each model.

[Uncle E]

No need for recordings. Just want to get info that I can pass on to IK. Are there any other expansions you need licenses for that you'd want to test?

[glokraw]

It might be another topic, but links to hit songs with heavily aliased guitar solos, should they exist, might be interesting. Or great solos with terrible tone. Not having gear 'street creds', I think about tone in basic terms of good or bad. If it's bad, or of no interest, I move on, but if it's flawed but very interesting, software makes it easy to improve. I got the ToneX software last week, and tried a few random presets, impressive to me, and a couple of knob twiddles tamed some others...(pretty useful interface, if one does not mind crowds of options ) Having a few favorite effects plugins in the session can obviate a lot of what I consider 'bad' tone, although my playing should improve as I find new sounds motivating practice

[Uncle E]

Jimmy Page was good at using tones that were thin and pokey to make lines stand apart from each other. Pretty amazing when you consider that the amps he was using on those early records usually only had a single tone control. I've never had the maturity/confidence to do that.