Let‘s speculate about 6.0

[tumface]

...

Great post. I agree with all of this 100%. And regarding the piano roll time selection thing. I've reported this to them in the past, along with another Bitwig user I know, and have become disappointed that they never did anything about it. It's incredible how much time this trivial flaw wastes when I use the piano roll in Bitwig. I hope they have fixed it in 6.

That issue (cursor change) is not there when using the pencil tool. It should be an easy adaptation…

You can't marquee/box select with the Pen tool. You have to switch back to the Pointer tool, either temporarily or permanently, in order to box select. So you end up juggling multiple tools, anyway. Also, strangely, the Pen tool doesn't make the time selection handles ignored when editing audio events. So, when doing audio edits in the detail editor, you're *always* screwed by the time selection handles. Weird!

[MegaPixel]

RE: That white selection range box, vs the black area selection that you get in 99% of all other applications (even the OS)

That white selection area thing is a pain in the ass for me too... I often want to select a range and then for some reason end up with the white range box thing doing it's thing.

I don't get why they don't just remove the white selection thingy all together and just use the classic black transparent range box selection.

When you box select say anything in the main timeline or in the piano roll, it should select what you have highlighted, then if you want to perform the functionality do it on drag of any side of what is selected with a key modifier, say ctrl + shift etc

Would also work on envelopes points over multiple tracks, if your box selection hits a envelope point first then only envelope points on all tracks in selection area will be selected and key modifiers can be used to perform the additional functionality when drag any of them. After selection you can un-select or add selections by holding shift down and left click.

Then dragging a side etc depending on what is multi selected, stretch would only start when a side is select and dragged of any of what is selected with or without a key modifier if needed.

Or even when you start a box range selection, if nothing is selected have a key modifier which would put it in a different selection mode, or have a button like the select and knife tool to change it's mode easily, without loosing selection, or a key combo to bring up a menu wheel for it like in blender for quick switch of drag selection mode (for main timeline blocks, notes, enveloper points etc).

[nowiamone]

...

Great post. I agree with all of this 100%. And regarding the piano roll time selection thing. I've reported this to them in the past, along with another Bitwig user I know, and have become disappointed that they never did anything about it. It's incredible how much time this trivial flaw wastes when I use the piano roll in Bitwig. I hope they have fixed it in 6.

That issue (cursor change) is not there when using the pencil tool. It should be an easy adaptation…

You can't marquee/box select with the Pen tool. You have to switch back to the Pointer tool, either temporarily or permanently, in order to box select. So you end up juggling multiple tools, anyway. Also, strangely, the Pen tool doesn't make the time selection handles ignored when editing audio events. So, when doing audio edits in the detail editor, you're *always* screwed by the time selection handles. Weird!

Exactly. The Pen tool is no solution.

That being said, my personal workflow always focused around double-clicking notes in. And that's why i'd love to double-click a note into the piano roll with gridlength, instead of "last used length". That's still impossible to do in Bitwig, too. Alt+Doubleclick is no alternative, as it doesn't offer length adjustment on-the-fly, but would slice the note when dragging.

RE: That white selection range box, vs the black area selection that you get in 99% of all other applications (even the OS)

That white selection area thing is a pain in the ass for me too... I often want to select a range and then for some reason end up with the white range box thing doing it's thing.

I don't get why they don't just remove the white selection thingy all together and just use the classic black transparent range box selection.

When you box select say anything in the main timeline or in the piano roll, it should select what you have highlighted, then if you want to perform the functionality do it on drag of any side of what is selected with a key modifier, say ctrl + shift etc

Would also work on envelopes points over multiple tracks, if your box selection hits a envelope point first then only envelope points on all tracks in selection area will be selected and key modifiers can be used to perform the additional functionality when drag any of them. After selection you can un-select or add selections by holding shift down and left click.

Then dragging a side etc depending on what is multi selected, stretch would only start when a side is select and dragged of any of what is selected with or without a key modifier if needed.

Or even when you start a box range selection, if nothing is selected have a key modifier which would put it in a different selection mode, or have a button like the select and knife tool to change it's mode easily, without loosing selection, or a key combo to bring up a menu wheel for it like in blender for quick switch of drag selection mode (for main timeline blocks, notes, enveloper points etc).

Yes!
2 things which make a lot of sense in the GIF example below:
1 Note selection doesn't cause a unneccessary (from a logical standpoint) and distracting spotlight-highlighting of the whole vertical size of the piano roll
2 Nevertheless, stretching-handles are still accessible

1-automatic-toolswitching-PIANO-ROLL-Ableton-genauer2.gif

Thanks to theming, i already could get rid of the close-to-never being used (speaking about my personal workflow) object-selection-lines and their uneccessary spotlight highlighting. Note: This obviously doesn't replace the need for a functional rework, as the prone-to-missclicks-handles are still there at the edges of selected notes, just invisible:

1-automatic-toolswitching-Bitwig-pianoroll-FUTURE2.gif

[liquidsound]

That issue (cursor change) is not there when using the pencil tool. It should be an easy adaptation…

You can't marquee/box select with the Pen tool. You have to switch back to the Pointer tool, either temporarily or permanently, in order to box select. So you end up juggling multiple tools, anyway. Also, strangely, the Pen tool doesn't make the time selection handles ignored when editing audio events. So, when doing audio edits in the detail editor, you're *always* screwed by the time selection handles. Weird!

I mentioned the PEN’s behavior because that aspect of not engaging in the Time Selection as soon you approach the midi note, should be used with the Pointer Tool as well.
It was not meant to be a solution.

This problem, and the disturbing (to me) strong highlight that appears when selecting midi event, are quite annoying.

[tumface]

I mentioned the PEN’s behavior because that aspect of not engaging in the Time Selection as soon you approach the midi note, should be used with the Pointer Tool as well.
It was not meant to be a solution.

This problem, and the disturbing (to me) strong highlight that appears when selecting midi event, are quite annoying.

Sorry, my mistake. I thought you meant that the user should adapt

[2NDMOUSE]

Hello Bitwig Fam,

I'll just keep our tradition going here.
I believe it's time to speculate on whats next. They say that the upcoming update will focus on the Arranger and Piano Roll, I'm curious about how this will be implemented. How extensive will the update be? Since the Arranger and Piano Roll have remained largely unchanged since the first version, I think they might be completely overhauled from the ground up like the Browser but in a good way, which I would welcome. However, this isn't certain; they might also just make slight enhancements while keeping everything as it is and call it 5.4

This is also something I really want.
I'm moving over to Bitwig from FL which I've used for a few decades, and despite FL being super-annoying now, the one area where it has always excelled is its piano roll, which I've spent a huuuge amount of time in. It's easy to draw in 8 note chords, or program very precise arpeggios, basslines, sequences, shift beats slices around etc....., but in comparison, Bitwig's piano roll feels more like a blunt instrument than a FL's scalpel.
I believe Bitwig is the future, and even if it's doing the other 95% well, I live in the piano roll, and it needs a lot of work to catch up with the piano roll in FL.

Not dissing Bitwig, because it's doing many things that make FL look like it's very primitive in comparison, but if the piano roll got updated to the point it rivalled FL's, that, would be the superGOAT !!

[tumface]

and despite FL being super-annoying now

Just curious, and not to derail this thread, and feel free to not reply if you don't want to -- what has changed in FL that's made it become super annoying to you recently? (Or what has changed with your own circumstances?)

[MegaPixel]

Hmmm Bitwig could learn a bit from the latest version of Waveform Pro. It seems a bit like bitwig crossed with reaper to me, a few more versions down the road and it could be an alternate to bitwig if they don't start improving the core features.

[sunthief01]

and despite FL being super-annoying now

Just curious, and not to derail this thread, and feel free to not reply if you don't want to -- what has changed in FL that's made it become super annoying to you recently? (Or what has changed with your own circumstances?)

As someone who very recently switched, I honestly would really struggle going back to FL's modulation and automation systems personally. I'm a FL lifer so I'm sure I'll end up using it again but yeah I heavily relied on plugins with good internal modulation sources and matrixes because I found DAW automation and modulation to be so cumbersome and annoying.

The separate windows aren't bad - totally different than Bitwig in that respect - but could get unwieldy at times

Harmor is my favorite synth but never fully gelled with the UI -for lots of the same reasons the pages, the menus, the modulation.

Overall I really love FL but wanted something different and Bitwig is working for me on many fronts - now I just need to finish some tracks and prove to myself that I can see tracks through from inception to completion

[tumface]

As someone who very recently switched, I honestly would really struggle going back to FL's modulation and automation systems personally. I'm a FL lifer so I'm sure I'll end up using it again but yeah I heavily relied on plugins with good internal modulation sources and matrixes because I found DAW automation and modulation to be so cumbersome and annoying.

The separate windows aren't bad - totally different than Bitwig in that respect - but could get unwieldy at times

Harmor is my favorite synth but never fully gelled with the UI -for lots of the same reasons the pages, the menus, the modulation.

Overall I really love FL but wanted something different and Bitwig is working for me on many fronts - now I just need to finish some tracks and prove to myself that I can see tracks through from inception to completion

I'm definitely with you on the modulation system in Bitwig being miles better than FL, but actual manual automation (with drawn curves) in Bitwig is pretty much the worst I've used in the last 10. It's buggy and loses/hides data, there's no way to give the data its own clips, it gets messed up in weird ways when doing simple stuff like moving clips around, and the editor for it is terrible (moving/snapping/copying/pasting points and segments.) And, when automating Bitwig's own internal devices, it applies mandatory, slow smoothing that you can't turn off.

I've reported all of these things, with video reproductions for the bugs and example projects. They acknowledged all of them, and they only fixed the ones that caused data corruption (this was over a year ago.)

Hopefully this all gets overhauled in 6...

[SLiC]

I agree withy this, modulation is fun for modular style composition, but far less necessary to me than automation.
Although he modulation is great, I often defer to VSTs modulation so I can save it with the VST.

[xbitz]

I agree withy this, modulation is fun for modular style composition, but far less necessary to me than automation.
Although he modulation is great, I often defer to VSTs modulation so I can save it with the VST.

Additive and multiplicative clip automation, however, generate a modulation signal that can be further tweaked with modulators — so things converge nicely. Pretty clever design .. as long as it actually works

bitwig.gif

Falling back to absolute between clips is a good idea — Ableton Live does the same, only there you don’t get any visual feedback in the arranger.

[2NDMOUSE]

and despite FL being super-annoying now

Just curious, and not to derail this thread, and feel free to not reply if you don't want to -- what has changed in FL that's made it become super annoying to you recently? (Or what has changed with your own circumstances?)

Quite a few things, incrementally layering on top of each other to reach Krakatoa status

Off the top of my head...........

1. no support besides "generic" for multiple controllers I've bought ( NI s61, Presonus faderport 16 and others ) , while cheap ones get preferential treatment

2. being badgered about FL cloud

3. new features being added that are geared towards people without imagination, and those features cluttering the UI

4. having multiple versions installed because older projects don't open in newer versions, and then having to do a fresh login, with extra 6 digit email verification, to unlock it, even though all the versions exist on the same machine.
So...for example, I'm using FL 2025 after unlocking it with the above method, and making a new track, and then want to work on a random older track. I load it in, and the playlist bar is stuck ( this happens frequently ), so I close FL 2025, and open FL 21. FL 21 tells me "this version needs to be unlocked", so I go through the process again, and unlock it. Later, or the next day, if I close FL 21 and open FL 2025 again, I have to unlock that version AGAIN. Until FL 2025, there as a file you downloaded. You ran it, it saved to the registry, and that was it..........done. Once. Now......hurdles and shenanigans to open something I've paid for. BS.

5. If I create a saved state for a plugin in the plugin database browser using FL 2025, it can't open it using FL 21. All it is, is an fst file and a png, but that's not backwards compatible. It used to be, and I could drag an image of a plugin from the browser straight onto the channel rack or the mixer, but now that's not possible if the preset was made in the 2025 version.

6. If I load a track and plugins are missing, 50% of the time, FL gives me no information what that plugin is. I just get the equivalent of a blank stare

7. The UI just looks so tired and dated, even with themes. Bitwig looks fresh and invigorating

8. The inevitability and encroachment of AI utilities relieving people of their own creative imagination in FL's general target demographic, is high, compared to what I'd consider safe ground in Bitwig, as it's geared more towards people with a very active curiosity and imagination.

my 2 cents, guaranteed to undoubtedly offend someone, somewhere...........

So yes.......moving forward, with Bitwig. I just wish there was an easier way to migrate existing FL projects to Bitwig as the dawproject thing.......not sure if that's working too well

[2NDMOUSE]

As someone who very recently switched, I honestly would really struggle going back to FL's modulation and automation systems personally. I'm a FL lifer so I'm sure I'll end up using it again but yeah I heavily relied on plugins with good internal modulation sources and matrixes because I found DAW automation and modulation to be so cumbersome and annoying.

The separate windows aren't bad - totally different than Bitwig in that respect - but could get unwieldy at times

Harmor is my favorite synth but never fully gelled with the UI -for lots of the same reasons the pages, the menus, the modulation.

Overall I really love FL but wanted something different and Bitwig is working for me on many fronts - now I just need to finish some tracks and prove to myself that I can see tracks through from inception to completion

I have hundreds of tracks on the go in FL, and for the longest time, I've wanted to be able to easily migrate all of those so I can work on them in Bitwig. I've saved them all in .zip format, which does incorporate the .flp file that Bitwig can work with.
That's been the only thing preventing me from fully adopting Bitwig as my main DAW. Well, that, and FL's piano roll, which I think is unsurpassed when it comes to effortless fluidity and precision.
Bitwig needs to take notes in this specific area as it's such a fundamental core area of the entire process

harmor.....ugh.....never liked it. Looks like it was designed by people that were blindfolded.

Still figuring out Bitwig's automation. So used to doing it the FL way.

Also using Studio One ( specifically for mastering ) and starting to learn ableton, just because I like to make things extra-difficult for myself

[ffx]

Maybe an "automation modulator" would be a nice addition, so you coud read out any track automation and mangle/use it for other modulation targets...