Let‘s speculate about 6.0

[2NDMOUSE]

Dedicated wet / dry controls on any plugin, for automating the degree of applied effect, would be an essential.

Unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any. If that's indeed the case, I'm pretty amazed something that basic would be omitted. I'd rather not have to add fx layer just for that really basic thing.
I'm a BW Noob, so it's very possible I've overlooked something ?

[muzicxs]

Dedicated wet / dry controls on any plugin, for automating the degree of applied effect, would be an essential.

Unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any. If that's indeed the case, I'm pretty amazed something that basic would be omitted. I'd rather not have to add fx layer just for that really basic thing.
I'm a BW Noob, so it's very possible I've overlooked something ?

What's the problem with adding an FX layer?

[tumface]

2. being badgered about FL cloud

Agree this is super annoying and clutter/bloat. I will never use this and don't want it in the program at all.

3. new features being added that are geared towards people without imagination, and those features cluttering the UI

Yeah, this is definitely not good. I don't think pandering to jocks and bozos is a good idea. Maybe this is because FL is also the most popular choice for, uh, new and unsophisticated people getting into computer music. So they feel the need to add this kind of dumb stuff.

4. having multiple versions installed because older projects don't open in newer versions, and then having to do a fresh login, with extra 6 digit email verification, to unlock it, even though all the versions exist on the same machine.
So...for example, I'm using FL 2025 after unlocking it...

I'm still on 24, so I haven't experienced that yet. The activation method was already changed in 24, though, and I haven't had it deactivate on me yet. It is really annoying that they made it a more invasive system. The old system worked great, but I guess they think too many people were pirating it. I really hate online activation, because it means I won't be able to use my software in 10 or 20 years. Every time I've been told it won't be a problem, I have been screwed by this: Adobe, Autodesk, Propellerheads... Adobe and Autodesk are billion dollar companies, and even *they* wouldn't keep their online activation for old products working. No shot the activation for FL will still work in 15 years. Every time a new part of my installed software adds online activation, that's another failure point, and eventually there are so many failure points that it stops working reliably.

Hard failures like activation are multiplicative, not proportional. Even if the software has a 92% chance of still having working online activation for old versions and computers in 10 years, if I have 7 things with those same odds, that's only a 55% chance that they will *all* work. And I won't be able to revive or revisit old projects if a single one of them fails. Every new thing that needs activation drags down that % of everything working.

Of course, Bitwig also uses online activation. Sigh.

5. If I create a saved state for a plugin in the plugin database browser using FL 2025, it can't open it using FL 21. All it is, is an fst file and a png, but that's not backwards compatible. It used to be, and I could drag an image of a plugin from the browser straight onto the channel rack or the mixer, but now that's not possible if the preset was made in the 2025 version.

Oh, I'm surprised that used to work. I would have just assumed it wouldn't. I don't think racks saved in newer versions of Bitwig or Ableton Live can be loaded in older versions of Bitwig or Live.

6. If I load a track and plugins are missing, 50% of the time, FL gives me no information what that plugin is. I just get the equivalent of a blank stare

That sucks, yeah. Really agree with you there. Especially when exchanging project files cross platform.

7. The UI just looks so tired and dated, even with themes. Bitwig looks fresh and invigorating

I think this one is a "familiarity breeds contempt" kind of thing. I'm not a hardcore FL user, but I've used it on and off over the years, starting since before it had a piano roll. (And mostly that was to make fun of it.) The UI in FL is way easier for me to read, visually, than Bitwig's. And the responsiveness of the tools, controls, click target, drag targets, hit zones, etc. in FL Studio are unmatched. I really think FL looking tired to you is because you're tired of looking at FL. Which is totally reasonable, if you used it 99% of the time for years and years.

Bitwig, despite big improvements to responsiveness in 5.2, still has too much GUI input latency (not MIDI) and random hitches when interacting with controls. The mouse hit targets are nowhere near as good as FL. And the mouse cursor icons that change when hovering over different elements (like for changing to a grab hand, arrow, etc.) seem to have some latency before they switch, making everything feel a little slower than it needs to. It's still usable, but I think you may come to the same conclusion as me after using it for a while.

8. The inevitability and encroachment of AI utilities relieving people of their own creative imagination in FL's general target demographic, is high, compared to what I'd consider safe ground in Bitwig, as it's geared more towards people with a very active curiosity and imagination.

Definitely agree with you there, again. I hope FL doesn't add any more dumb crap, and I hope Bitwig never starts to.

[_leras]

Dedicated wet / dry controls on any plugin, for automating the degree of applied effect, would be an essential.

Unless I'm mistaken, there aren't any. If that's indeed the case, I'm pretty amazed something that basic would be omitted. I'd rather not have to add fx layer just for that really basic thing.
I'm a BW Noob, so it's very possible I've overlooked something ?

Just select the plug in and use Ctrl+G for group, and it will put the FX in a small group by itself, and will get it's own mix knob.

The Bitwig devices are usually pretty good at having a mix knob on the panel, and are easy to use, but the grouping method is great for third party plug ins as you can tweak it without opening the plug in.

[_leras]

Maybe an "automation modulator" would be a nice addition, so you coud read out any track automation and mangle/use it for other modulation targets...

Now you're talking, a kind of automation receiver. This would be amazing!!

[2NDMOUSE]

What's the problem with adding an FX layer?

As far as I can see, the fact it needs to be added at all, IS the problem. I'm trying to get away from FL because of the things it does badly. There are however, lots of things it does well. Having a wet / dry on every mixer insert is one. It's such a basic requirement that shouldn't need another overt link in the chain.
I routinely have up to 8 vsts on a mixer channel, to arrive at a certain sound. There's a dedicated wet / dry dial on each insert in FL that I can manually set, or automate.

If I have to add 8 instances of fx layer on top of the vsts, I see that as a problem. I have a powerful PC, but cumulatively, my cpu and ram are gonna take a hit with all those extra utilities running as well. Why can't they simply have a wet / dry dial on each plugin beside the modulators ? Seems like such a glaring "elephantine" omission to me.

[2NDMOUSE]

Just select the plug in and use Ctrl+G for group, and it will put the FX in a small group by itself, and will get it's own mix knob.

........the grouping method is great for third party plug ins as you can tweak it without opening the plug in.

Thanks. Groups is something I haven't tackled yet. They don't really exist in FL, so I', gonna look into this as I really need to automate the wet / dry for a lot of things.
Probably a dumb question, and I haven't had my coffee yet, but if I only had say, 1 reverb on a channel, and wanted to automate the wet signal, can I add a single vst to a group just to get a wet / dry dial ?

I tend not to use native plugins in any DAW, and the devs never make things as easy for 3rd party plugins. Midi learn is another area where they tend to make it more awkward than it is for a native plugin.

[Dionysos]

If I have to add 8 instances of fx layer on top of the vsts, I see that as a problem. I have a powerful PC, but cumulatively, my cpu and ram are gonna take a hit with all those extra utilities running as well.

It's really not. Bitwig's container devices are super lightweight, they're VERY different from FL's Patcher.

This modularity is something you might want to get used to with Bitwig in general, by the way: Most of its built-in devices don't come with all the controls and effects that you'd be used to from 3rd party effects or instruments. Instead they come with slots that allow you to "add what you need, when you need it". If a feature can easily be handled by modulators, nested effects, or a layer or selector or group device, it's unlikely to be added to the core device.

I can understand how coming from FL, a per-device mix control may seem like a massive omission, but given how fast & seamless it is to group and ungroup devices in Bitwig, I'm pretty sure you'll find it to be a non-issue in practice.

[2NDMOUSE]

Agree this is super annoying and clutter/bloat. I will never use this and don't want it in the program at all.

Glad it's not just me. I think imageline needed to find other ways to generate the income they're not getting from paid updates, like in every other DAW, because of their "free updates for life" policy. I can't blame them for wanting to make some extra money to subsidize the continuation of that policy, but FL cloud is just something I will never use.
That said, hey've also acquired a lot of other companies like WA Production, Melda Production, United Plugins to name a few, so they're not short of a few quid.

I prefer buying 3rd party plugins from independently owned developers............but such a large part of Imageline's target demographic are those who aren't really musicians in the compositional sense, and are more in the "I want to be a DJ to get gurlzzzz" mentality, and if they have to press more than one key to do anything, it's too much like hard work

Yeah, this is definitely not good. I don't think pandering to jocks and bozos is a good idea. Maybe this is because FL is also the most popular choice for, uh, new and unsophisticated people getting into computer music. So they feel the need to add this kind of dumb stuff.

Yeah I think this is where it's going. The more music is marketed as something so unspecial and unremarkable that just about anyone could make a hit ( I said "hit" ) in the lavatory, the more incrementally dumbed down it gets. They've added "Gopher" AI to their manual, and for the meantime, it's just the manual, but I'm willing to bet that will spread roots into the rest of FL, and they'll market it as a convenience, for the lazy-asses who don't like to utilise their own imagination, and rely on something else to do all the donkey-work for them. This can of worms is now open for business

Hard failures like activation are multiplicative, not proportional. Even if the software has a 92% chance of still having working online activation for old versions and computers in 10 years, if I have 7 things with those same odds, that's only a 55% chance that they will *all* work. And I won't be able to revive or revisit old projects if a single one of them fails. Every new thing that needs activation drags down that % of everything working.

Once I realised abandonware created a kind of, cascade failure in my ability to open a track and have total recall of every patch and parameter, I started bouncing everything to stems once I'm satisfied, and ready to commit it to wav. I still keep the data saves up until that point, but I'm no longer wholly reliant on that alone. Storage is dirt cheap, and I even mirror the stems on another external drive, to have a backup pf the backup
It's not a problem until wav becomes an obsolete format and we're all transmitting songs telepathically.......but I think we have a few years until that happens

[2NDMOUSE]

It's really not. Bitwig's container devices are super lightweight, they're VERY different from FL's Patcher.

This modularity is something you might want to get used to with Bitwig in general, by the way: Most of its built-in devices don't come with all the controls and effects that you'd be used to from 3rd party effects or instruments. Instead they come with slots that allow you to "add what you need, when you need it". If a feature can easily be handled by modulators, nested effects, or a layer or selector or group device, it's unlikely to be added to the core device.

I can understand how coming from FL, a per-device mix control may seem like a massive omission, but given how fast & seamless it is to group and ungroup devices in Bitwig, I'm pretty sure you'll find it to be a non-issue in practice.

Thanks. I'm sure in time, I'll maybe come to agree. Been using FL since version 3.0, so I'm very set in it's ways. There's no perfect DAW.......unless someone came up with a hybrid "Flitwig" ( you heard it here first ) , and combined all the best things about both into one all conquering Mega-DAW

It's a paradigm shift from FL, which was already a paradigm shift away from other more traditional DAWs. Different concepts and terminology. I've been dipping in and out of the manual but I really need to sit down and read it from cover to cover until it becomes second nature to me.

[coroknight]

Just use devices until it becomes an issue. Doesn’t need to be a big deal.

[cfernn]

Am I in the FL Studio forum? The f is going on

[pdxindy]

Am I in the FL Studio forum? The f is going on

Cause there's nothing else to talk about until Bitwig Studio V6 beta is available on the 27th

[2NDMOUSE]

Am I in the FL Studio forum? The f is going on

Cause there's nothing else to talk about until Bitwig Studio V6 beta is available on the 27th

I should've really taken advantage of that upgrade offer a few weeks ago. Didn't realise a new major version was this imminent.

Someone should maybe start a thread to speculate about what it might contain......

[JHernandez]

^Can't tell if joking.