Bitwig 6

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dhemery wrote: Sat Sep 13, 2025 10:46 pm
_leras wrote: Sat Sep 13, 2025 8:26 pm And how are they going to do melodic minor? :hihi:
I guess they'll leave it up to you to switch between ascending and descending as needed.
It's one of the reasons I feel these scale highlighting things can be like deficient training wheels. They seem useful for beginners, at first, but they end up locking you in and making you think of everything in terms of "allowed notes" and "disallowed notes" like it's an immutable binary rule. It makes it harder to temporarily visit another key or borrow a chord when this kind of feature is enabled, so you just... end up not doing those things. Even though they're perhaps the most interesting and useful benefit of a priori scales.

I feel like if you're learning the parts of western songwriting/composition where you'd care about choosing specific scales, but then not want to freely interchange between scales or modes or borrow chords, would be a span of your learning journey measured in a few weeks, at most. The next thing you'd want to do after learning about modes is interchange them or interpret them as a different mode. Any tool that makes this difficult is not good, in my opinion. Requiring something like DAW automation in a separate view or lane to manage it feels too cumbersome. I dunno, just my rant.

I love music theory features, but these scale highlight/lock things have never seemed good to me.

Fortunately, most DAWs let you disable the feature and ignore it, so it never bothers me, and the people who like the feature can enjoy it. Except for Bitwig 6, which always has it enabled in the transport bar, with no way to turn it off, for some reason. Yeah, I already filed feedback for it in beta 1, and I hope more people do, too. Wait, I think I already posted a message like this. :dog:

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tumface wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 3:00 am I love music theory features, but these scale highlight/lock things have never seemed good to me.
Some of my most satisfying melodies have come from just drawing random notes. :hihi: half j/k

I do see it being helpful in some ways, especially for things like the arpegiator to be able to transpose and use modes.

Btw, you're perhaps right it's not too hard to understand basic scale theory, but to utilise it in a DAW, with piano roll notation, or say arpegiators where we have relative semitones, it's not always so obvious to read and see what's there.

(And not everyone has been to jazz school and had to learn to play everything in all twelve scales...)

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_leras wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 5:07 am (And not everyone has been to jazz school and had to learn to play everything in all twelve scales...)
I don't need to play in all 12 scales. I'm not that good at it. I use transposition, either using a MIDI FX or on my keyboard :P If I want to play in B minor, for example, I transpose up 2 semitones. My keyboard has dedicated buttons for it. Or I can use a MIDI FX device in Bitwig (or whatever DAW.) And then the white keys in the piano roll are always in scale (for major/minor natural and their modes) in case you don't want to memorize which notes are in each scale. In Bitwig you could even put one on every instrument track, then modulate them all by a single project master macro knob, and change the key of everything at once. Hey, that sounds even better than the scales feature.
Last edited by tumface on Mon Sep 15, 2025 6:06 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Props to Bitwig for letting you automate a lot of stuff in their system, though. Like you can even automate using the global key on or off on the Key Filter+ device. That's pretty useful.

BitwigStudioApp_xwFRWgcaZh.png
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_leras wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 5:07 am (And not everyone has been to jazz school and had to learn to play everything in all twelve scales...)
So I just tried playing with Bitwig's key/scale system again, and it suffers from the same problems that Live's does.

With Bitwig's system, if I set the the key to Eb major, then playing a C on my keyboard still plays a C note. And B also plays a C note. I can't get a Eb major scale by just playing the white keys. So, Bitwig's system doesn't really help you play in key in any useful way. All it does is let you play random notes on the keyboard and substitutes notes to make sure they're in key. You can't get any intent out of this system if you don't already know how to play in that key. It's only good for random noodling, which is really unlikely to help you make anything compelling, in my experience. Especially because you will sometimes end up playing the same note twice when pressing different keys on the keyboard etc and you won't know how to find the roots of the chords and stuff.

What I think most people actually want is to press C on their keyboard and get the tonic note of the key they're in. They want to press D and get the second scale degree. Et cetera. They want to play the white keys and have those be the correct keys for whatever diatonic key/mode they're in. And both Bitwig's and Live's systems (they're basically the same system) fail at that.

But, just transposing the keyboard up and down actually works for that, and also shows you the "allowed" notes in the piano roll. And if you want a minor key, start from A instead of C on the white keys. If you want Dorian mode, start from D instead of C on the white keys. etc.

So I don't really see the advantage of scale systems that work like Bitwig's and Live's. (Some devices can be "scale aware," which is sorta cool for snapping oscillators in interesting ways, though there are other ways to accomplish this.)

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In Bitwig 6 they blatantly copied Live; they copied the automation mode, they copied part of the layered editing, the scale thingy... And in some cases without even trying to improve over. I left that daw 10 years ago. Seems like she has found me again.....

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Has Bitwig confirmed yet that we won't be forced to use this horrible eye-strain-inducing dark mode?
tumface wrote: a priori[/i] scales.

I feel like if you're learning the parts of western songwriting/composition where you'd care about choosing specific scales, but then not want to freely interchange between scales or modes or borrow chords, would be a span of your learning journey measured in a few weeks, at most. The next thing you'd want to do after learning about modes is interchange them or interpret them as a different mode. Any tool that makes this difficult is not good, in my opinion. Requiring something like DAW automation in a separate view or lane to manage it feels too cumbersome. I dunno, just my rant.

I love music theory features, but these scale highlight/lock things have never seemed good to me.

Fortunately, most DAWs let you disable the feature and ignore it, so it never bothers me, and the people who like the feature can enjoy it. Except for Bitwig 6, which always has it enabled in the transport bar, with no way to turn it off, for some reason. Yeah, I already filed feedback for it in beta 1, and I hope more people do, too. Wait, I think I already posted a message like this. :dog:
And the areas for the non-highlighted notes are such a dark shade of black that I really have to focus to see the grid lines... it's terrible.

But they could add some useful music theory highlighting features---for example, select a chord in the scale to highlight nearby borrowed chords, or nearby ways to modulate to a specified key, etc. Of course this would probably be more useful with chord tracks....

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stamp wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 9:12 am In Bitwig 6 they blatantly copied Live; they copied the automation mode, they copied part of the layered editing, the scale thingy... And in some cases without even trying to improve over. I left that daw 10 years ago. Seems like she has found me again.....
In Bitwig 1 they blatantly copied all of Live!
X32 Desk, i9 PC, S88MK3, S1, BWS, Live + PUSH 3, Osmose, RedShift 6 Pro3, Tempera, Syntakt, Digitone II, OP1-F, OPXY, Eurorack, TD27 Drums, Guitars, Basses, Amps and of course lots of pedals!

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SLiC wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 11:30 am
stamp wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 9:12 am In Bitwig 6 they blatantly copied Live; they copied the automation mode, they copied part of the layered editing, the scale thingy... And in some cases without even trying to improve over. I left that daw 10 years ago. Seems like she has found me again.....
In Bitwig 1 they blatantly copied all of Live!
No they didn't, else I would still using Live.

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tumface wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 5:56 am
What I think most people actually want is to press C on their keyboard and get the tonic note of the key they're in.
I certainly don't. When I play a C on my keyboard, I want to hear a C. Years of keyboard muscle memory and ear memory would be lost with what your describing.

And of course, that has always been easy to do with note transpose if someone wants it.

To me, the purpose of the scale system is not about playing on the keyboard. It is mainly a filtering system for manual note input in the piano roll and to constrain automated note generation like arpeggiators and so on.

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Ou_Tis wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 11:02 am And the areas for the non-highlighted notes are such a dark shade of black that I really have to focus to see the grid lines... it's terrible.
You can make the grid lines light...

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pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:29 pm
Ou_Tis wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 11:02 am And the areas for the non-highlighted notes are such a dark shade of black that I really have to focus to see the grid lines... it's terrible.
You can make the grid lines light...
I see, in Settings -> User Interface. (Had never felt the need to bother with user interface settings in any previous version of Bitwig.) But apparently no way to turn off dark mode and switch it back to how it looked in previous versions.

And when you're adjusting the user interface settings, the "settings" window completely blocks the arrange view and can't be moved, so you can't see what it looks like as you're adjusting it.

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pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:26 pm
tumface wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 5:56 am
What I think most people actually want is to press C on their keyboard and get the tonic note of the key they're in.
I certainly don't. When I play a C on my keyboard, I want to hear a C. Years of keyboard muscle memory and ear memory would be lost with what your describing.

And of course, that has always been easy to do with note transpose if someone wants it.

To me, the purpose of the scale system is not about playing on the keyboard. It is mainly a filtering system for manual note input in the piano roll and to constrain automated note generation like arpeggiators and so on.
I think there are arguments for both cases, it would be good if it could work in both ways.

There is an argument that if we can easily get the devices to play in the key and scale then having an option to also make this easy for a user seems like a good idea to me. It should not be forced though, there should be an option. Maybe not everyone has your years of keyboard muscle and ear memory?

It would be good for grid controllers, you could just set them to a C major scale and then use the BW key and scale stuff to map everything nicely.

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pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:26 pm
tumface wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 5:56 am
What I think most people actually want is to press C on their keyboard and get the tonic note of the key they're in.
I certainly don't. When I play a C on my keyboard, I want to hear a C. Years of keyboard muscle memory and ear memory would be lost with what your describing.

And of course, that has always been easy to do with note transpose if someone wants it.

To me, the purpose of the scale system is not about playing on the keyboard. It is mainly a filtering system for manual note input in the piano roll and to constrain automated note generation like arpeggiators and so on.
I was specifically replying to someone talking about the scale system saving them from having to learn to play all 12 scales, and my comments were in the context of that. If you want to be able to play in any scale at any time, then that entire subsection of the reply chain is irrelevant to you.

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Ou_Tis wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:34 pm
pdxindy wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 2:29 pm
Ou_Tis wrote: Mon Sep 15, 2025 11:02 am And the areas for the non-highlighted notes are such a dark shade of black that I really have to focus to see the grid lines... it's terrible.
You can make the grid lines light...
I see, in Settings -> User Interface. (Had never felt the need to bother with user interface settings in any previous version of Bitwig.) But apparently no way to turn off dark mode and switch it back to how it looked in previous versions.

And when you're adjusting the user interface settings, the "settings" window completely blocks the arrange view and can't be moved, so you can't see what it looks like as you're adjusting it.
No no... use the editor settings (bottom right corner of arrange)... it doesn't even cover half the arrange window and it doesn't grey it out.

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