SWAY - a synth modeled after the Yamaha SY77

[sheaf]

About the RCM thing: if you investigate the official presets you'll see they often use RCM not as a way to introduce a new timbre to the FM element, but as a way to enhance a patch that's primarily based on the AWM element.

They route the AWM into a 0Hz operator so it acts as a waveshaper, and give the envelope a fast decay, and set high velocity sensitivity. This way the higher velocities act as a sort of crunchy transient booster. This makes the patch way more dynamic and fun to play compared to just a plain AWM version of it. The remaining operators can be used to provide a stable foundation for some lower harmonics, or to shift the timbre in an interesting way.

[ged leitch]

Hi Sheaf

Love the Audio Demo tracks you did, especially the Jazz fusion one, what did you use for mastering?

[Caesarg86]

In its most basic form, RCM is all about having a sample do its magic as an enhancement to the operator stack. RCM most usefulness comes from routing the sample as a modulator into a carrier to create a more evolving sound that increases the FM possibilities. I believe most SWAY users will create more beautiful and exotic sounds than they ever did with the hardware, because we will visually see how RCM interaction occurs in realtime on the VST. Imagine immediately loading one of your most favorite patches and be able to break down its contents for a better understanding. I have used Halion 7 and can tell you that your experience on a fully programmable VST such as SWAY, may outweigh your FM LAB experience two-fold, IMHO. Have a great day…and let’s be kind to each other.

[Uncle E]

They route the AWM into a 0Hz operator so it acts as a waveshaper, and give the envelope a fast decay, and set high velocity sensitivity. This way the higher velocities act as a sort of crunchy transient booster. This makes the patch way more dynamic and fun to play compared to just a plain AWM version of it. The remaining operators can be used to provide a stable foundation for some lower harmonics, or to shift the timbre in an interesting way.

Interesting! They're probably doing the same thing with Montage. It sounds like heightened reality to me.

[IvyBirds]

You can however recreate all AFM based SY77/SY99 presets. Something that HALion 7 (FM Zone) / FM Lab (standalone) can pull off easily with the custom routing matrix and all available stock FM waveforms (which covers the SY99).

You can technically even recreate all AWM2/AFM hybrid setups with HALion 7 -

How? HALion7 can't do 0hz operators it also can't use samples as modulators in the same ways

You post is full of many things that are not accurate

In many other things while technically it can recreate what the SY77 is doing it accomplishes it on far less convenient ways. For example how to implement looping envelopes

It can also do however far more things that the SY77 engine can't do especially as it relates to samples and how they interact with FM elements beyond using them as FM modulators thanks to HALion7s Mod Matrix

Sway is the perfect companion to HALion7 for FM

[EvilDragon]

HALion 7 can absolutely do 0 Hz operators, in Fixed mode, the slider goes all the way down to 0...

Maybe actually try it before you blurt stuff out?


Also about looping envelopes, this is really very easy in HALion... MSEGs are way easier to edit with the mouse than going by time/level segments param by param. To set the loop you just drag the loop markers, easy.

[IvyBirds]

The idea of RCM sound great on the SY99 but in the real world for me I never found much use for it unless I was using very simple waveforms, as anything complex used a modulator turns into extremely non musical noise and garbage. So you can start with something complex and then filter it down to the point where it's super simple

Have you been posting under another name on the Yamaha Musicians Forum back in 2008 already?

I recently read a very similar statement there.

Nope, that viewpoint is just pretty much. universally shared by countless people going back to 1989

Is this in any way to be compared?

https://www.tracktion.com/products/f-em

Huh! Teaches me for never properly looking at Tracktion's F.'em. I always shrugged it off as this weird synth amalgamation. I never noticed that it can use samples as additional OSC/Modulator.

From quick looks at the page, and a quick dive into the manual, it sadly can not load SYSEX however. Shame, but considering that the presets and the stock waveforms of the SY77/SY99 are (technically) copyrighted, not surprised either.
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[IvyBirds]

The idea of RCM sound great on the SY99 but in the real world for me I never found much use for it unless I was using very simple waveforms, as anything complex used a modulator turns into extremely non musical noise and garbage. So you can start with something complex and then filter it down to the point where it's super simple

Have you been posting under another name on the Yamaha Musicians Forum back in 2008 already?

I recently read a very similar statement there.

Nope, that viewpoint is just pretty much. universally shared by countless people going back to 1989

[IvyBirds]

HALion 7 can absolutely do 0 Hz operators, in Fixed mode, the slider goes all the way down to 0...

Maybe actually try it before you blurt stuff out?

But wait your expert says otherwise

It doesn’t seem that halion fm engine(montage)has 0hz operators , combined with the phase offset this has huge potential for waveshaping .

Are you saying your expert is wrong? If so why do you use him as your expert?

And I am very familiar with what HALion7 can do and not do thanks

[EvilDragon]

I actually opened HALion 7.1 and you can absolutely do 0 Hz operators. Sounds like it, too. Unsure if this may have been added in 7.1 or not, but it's there all the same.

[IvyBirds]

I actually opened HALion 7.1 and you can absolutely do 0 Hz operators. Sounds like it, too. Unsure if this may have been added in 7.1 or not, but it's there all the same.

So you are saying your expert is wrong gotcha

[EvilDragon]

Well you're quoting a post from 2023 when that statement might've been true. Geez.

[IvyBirds]

Well you're quoting a post from 2023 when that statement might've been true. Geez.

Awesome so how do we apply these 0hz FM operators samples which was my point and the context of my post? And the context of what sheaf wrote just ahead of it

Perhaps instead of trying to always prove me wrong step back and take a breath

[Uncle E]

Listen, boys, I'm gonna need to see yer license 'n registrations cuz all of you's is doing OT in a No OT zone.

[Compyfox]

About the RCM thing: if you investigate the official presets you'll see they often use RCM not as a way to introduce a new timbre to the FM element, but as a way to enhance a patch that's primarily based on the AWM element.

Access to a demo version, when?

I have used Halion 7 and can tell you that your experience on a fully programmable VST such as SWAY, may outweigh your FM LAB experience two-fold, IMHO.

If we talk purely FM Lab loaded in HALion Sonic 7, then yes.

If we talk full featured HALion 7, then I will agree to disagree to that statement. You have access to 7 different Zone Types (Synth/VA, Sampler, Granular, Organ, Wavetable, FM and Spectral) that you can modulate with each other to your hearts content (if you wrap your heard around the Modulation Matrix).

The one valid criticism that can be made, is the lack of a proper Oscilloscope and/or standalone FFT (Spectrum Analyzer) inside of HALion. There is one Oscilloscope built in now, yes. But it's a bit lacking on usability. Third party tools are highly recommended, but they will be post DCF and DCA and effects, of course.

You can technically even recreate all AWM2/AFM hybrid setups with HALion 7 -

How? HALion7 can't do 0hz operators it also can't use samples as modulators in the same ways

You post is full of many things that are not accurate

Oh... now I see what other posters in here brought up, and why are they so irritated.


While I didn't dive into the "0 Hz" modulation (since this is just not on my radar, sorry -- and from my understanding, we're not talking 0 Hz samples, but 0 Hz FM operators). I can however confirm that you can use samples as modulators.


Here is a screenshot from a tutorial video from Groove3, showing capabilities of the Modulation Matrix.




This is but a simple example of routing signals into one of the available 16 busses (for the Modulation Matrix), and then that signal from the bus is used to modulate something else. In this particular case, it's the cutoff of the zone that is being edited.

If you would kindly take a closer look at the HALion 7 manual, section Modulation Matrix:

• you will note that the Modulation Sources can be the output from any given zone.
• the "output" is of course post DCF and DCA. In some cases even effects. So the zone is automatically routed to a program output. And with the modulation matrix, you can also route it to a bus (01 to 16)
• the Modulation Matrix destinations are depending on the zone you're applying modulation to. For example, if you use a Wavetable zone, then you can modulate Wavetable 1/2's Pitch, Level, Pan, Filter Shift, etc. If you use a FM zone, you can route it to any or multiple FM Operators in that particular zone, most notably Level, Pitch (there we have our RCM!), and a handful more.

I'm sorry to disappoint you - my post is far from being inaccurate.




However - seeing how the mudslinging continues in this thread, I will back away and not further interact. I neither have the time, nor patience for this on KVR anymore. And the post spamming with "no, you are wrong" is getting annoying.