About CLAP

[Urs]

I'd also recommend the Sonicstate video...

[jinxtigr]

Full Airwindows CLAP thanks to BaconPaul

[machinesworking]

11MB download on Linux, just looked and 15MB on Windows.

On Mac OS it starts off as a 22MB universal binary, becomes 27mb on download, and 160mb after installing. It's lean code for sure, but I highly doubt the program Reaper living on your computer is 15mb.

[Hanz Meyzer]

Just as a raw idea:

Couldn't a CLAP plugin be a generator and a fx processor at the same time, so the generator section was provided to the DAW, and also the fx section was provided to the DAW, but completely separated? Or is it then easier to code the fx section as separate plugin already?

I always find it quite counterproductive when synths come with very nice fx, too, yet you are completely unable to properly route and post process those fx, wrong order, already summed together etc.

Could this general design flaw maybe be solved with a clever plugin architecture feature?

[baconpaul]

What I'm starting to do in situations like that is have one clap have two plugins (or three or four) which provide different topologies and functions from a shared code base. That works pretty well. Six sines has two versions (a 2 out and sven out version) which support different features and topologies.

But I don't think this is a general problem solved by clap. For instance, Surge is an instrument with audio input so you can use it today as an effect or a synth, but because it takes midi, the constraints *in the designs of many daws* makes that routing a bit odd. Super flex daws like reaper let you do crazy stuff but in logic (as an instance of a daw with a more static routing path in the default setup) you need to set it up as an instrument track and side chain to it and you can only have one side chain on an instrument.

So while, in theory, yes you could have a clap which dynamically supported many topologies - that's in the API - in practice the DAW support for that would make it not super useful vs just sharing all your code and having two plugin 'flavors' in one clap.

Curious what other devs think tho of course.

[Hanz Meyzer]

in practice the DAW support for that would make it not super useful vs just sharing all your code and having two plugin 'flavors' in one clap

Oh ok, thanks for your point of view here. And what if a synth would provide kind of "insert fx slots" to the daw, so you could actually plugin daw controlled fx plugins within the fx chain of the synth? Or would such a feature overcomplicated to implement, taking care of pdc, waiting for daw processing and what not?

Or just adding multiple outputs, as many as possible But the reverb, all the fx with a wet amount are kind of a problem. In a classic mix scenario, you put reverbs onto busses with 100% wet, with the benefit of a clearer, more controlled depth impression. Since there are such kind of best practises, a reverb in a synth tends to be used the "wrong way" almost all the time.

What if the synth would only provide a "wet amount bus"? And a option "output to wet bus" for each typical bus fx, e.g. delay and reverb? But then it is completely up to the synth again.

I am just looking for some conceptual approach to solve this problem. A conceptual approach which would be easy for the user and the developer. Currently it's either "don't care for reverb busses" or "don't use such fx in the synth", even if it sounds great.

Surge is an instrument with audio input

I actually meant the synth also exposing an actual fx plugin, not an additional synth plugin or providing an input. Using a synth as fx is unanticipated in most daws, I think only Reaper and Bitwig actually can use it like an fx? Most certainly you will have to setup extra bus routing, or use multiple tracks... Which then completely breaks the usual fx workflow.

[EvilDragon]

That problem really needs to be supported at DAW level, by making the routing more flexible (a la Reaper and Bitwig), plugins cannot solve that on their own.

[syntonica]

You CAN design a plugin in that fashion. It just needs to disable the oscillators, or generators, and take input from the Audio In pins and send it through it's internal effects. I'm not sure why more plugin devs don't do it that way. The one snag is that the plugin reports itself as taking both audio and midi inputs and when used as a synth, it still gets audio input (which should be empty, so not a HUGE deal in ignoring it.) This was with VST2. I'm unsure how other formats handle these things.

If there are further caveats, please enlighten me! Thanks!

[baconpaul]

You CAN design a plugin in that fashion. It just needs to disable the oscillators, or generators, and take input from the Audio In pins and send it through it's internal effects. I'm not sure why more plugin devs don't do it that way. The one snag is that the plugin reports itself as taking both audio and midi inputs and when used as a synth, it still gets audio input (which should be empty, so not a HUGE deal in ignoring it.) This was with VST2. I'm unsure how other formats handle these things.

If there are further caveats, please enlighten me! Thanks!

yeah surge does exactly this as I alluded to. The modern way to do it so it works in DAWs is to make it an instrument with a side chain that has a voice-latch-open mode if you want one plugin.

The problem is, some daws see something with a main (as opposed to side chain) audio in and a midi input and just get confused. so the daw sort of is dictating the acceptable topology. But synth-with-sidechain is supported since it is one of the vocoder patterns.

[baconpaul]

Surge is an instrument with audio input

I actually meant the synth also exposing an actual fx plugin, not an additional synth plugin or providing an input. Using a synth as fx is unanticipated in most daws, I think only Reaper and Bitwig actually can use it like an fx? Most certainly you will have to setup extra bus routing, or use multiple tracks... Which then completely breaks the usual fx workflow.

Right so really your choices, if you want to support all the mainline daws, are

1. Two plugins, one which is an 'effect' and one which is an 'instrument' or
2. An 'instrument with sidechain'

pros and cons to both.

since, in most cases, the pure-play fx version would have different ui and workflow two plugins is your best bet. they can be in one install/image/component/clap/vst3 of course.

instrument with side chain is useful to mix and match audio with your synthesized sound. Think vocoder and the like. but i agree if you just want to use 'all of surge except the oscillator' it's a somewhat clumsy workflow. Also using surge in that mode has a bunch of oddities (like what is the lifetime of an envelope etc....) as you would have with any other synth, hence the 'design a separate fx plugin with the same codebase' is probably best.

in surge, we also designed a separate fx plugin with the same codebase which some people find quite useful. but it's just the fx section, not the pre-fx filters and so on.

[syntonica]

The problem is, some daws see something with a main (as opposed to side chain) audio in and a midi input and just get confused. so the daw sort of is dictating the acceptable topology.

How very annoying. I can't see doing it any other way though since it's so simple. It just bothers me to see two versions of an identical plugin hogging up room on my hard drive where one should be sufficient.

Anyway, thanks.

[baconpaul]

Oh if you do two plugins in one clap which share the dsp etc the hard drive difference is tiny

Six sines is “two plugins” but the difference in DLL size of the second plugin was a percent or so

[limitlesssss]

Does CLAP support Full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point Operation? Assuming that both the DAW and the plug-in support it, that is.

If the answer is yes, is it the same for the three major operating systems? Windows, Mac, GNU/Linux?

[Urs]

Yep, regardless of platform.

[limitlesssss]

Yep, regardless of platform.

Thank you Urs for the answer. I asked, because I thought CLAP supported only 32-Bit Floating Point signals, and not higher. It's great to know it fully supports Full End-to-End 64-Bit Floating Point Operations.

Which means from now on, I only install the CLAP version of all plug-ins. There's simply no reason to bother with VST3 anymore (at least for me).

Thank you again Urs.