Zebra 3 Public Beta Revision 20399

[jtsterays]

Of course there will be people who don't like the animations, especially older guys where it would just look like epilepsy. But the reality is, outside of forums like here, GS or Vi-C, the most famous synths people actually use to program instead of presets surfing are and will always be Serum, Vital & Phaseplant just because of the GUI style wherever you like it or not (I dont like these synths at all, mostly primitive DSPs hiding under nice UIs).

Even though I dont like those synths, If I have a friend who wanted to make music I'd still point to either of those synths just because animations and visualizations are way easier to understand/learn for majority of people, it's a common fact. It's also why Fabfilter stuff are so popular too. All these animations are basic requirements to them now, they expect to see them when a new synth comes out, so when stuff like Z3 doesnt have them = instant pass.

At the end of the day it's still a business, you gotta cater to the bigger crowd if you want to success (it's not like Z3 doesnt sell, but you know what I mean in this context). Urs and his team will never be able to find a perfect solution that satisfies both ends of the spectrum (Zebra 2 users <----> Serum/PS users) because it simply does not exist. So the next best solution is to offer us customization: people who don't like visualizations can turn them off, vice versa. I'd love for my Z3 to look like a spaceship because a synth this complex really benefits from heavy visualization to balance things out, whereas synths like a Minimoog shouldnt have it.

I really want Z3 to be the top 1 most popular synth because it just sounds better than all of the others, pure synthesis wise (some cheats with samplers/granular). And beneath this "outdated" GUI, there's a tons of next gen DSP that deserve recognition like the spline osc for examples, other wavetable synths still use the same tech that came out 3 decades ago. They're basically glorified samplers.

tldr: please add Dune's swarm detune mode.

[bhinton]

I hate that sort of UI animation with a deep, deep passion. It's too distracting to be informative or aid in patch construction, and with a synth like Zebra, the idea of sacrificing even a tiny but of CPU for something like animated modulation rings makes no sense. At least to me.

[jtsterays]

a kick drum envelope moves too fast to pick up any detail visually, modnoise would be a nightmare, etc etc...

The current dots implementation from other synths are not fully matured/realized tech. Stuff like modnoise shouldn't look like a fast moving dots, it should be actual noise, think TV white noise videos/gifs (colored accordingly too: e.g white noise = white ring, pink noise = pink ring)
Or LFOs going to audio rate smoothly changes from motions to a static ring that also transitions to brighter/hotter color when at even faster rate/higher pitch.


(both of these will be extremely small, knob ring size so they wont be that distracting. That said, still optional, can be turned off)

A kick env too fast that teleports from point to point is still better than nothing, and something similar already exist in Z3: fastest MSEG (playback line in graph). It takes 1/4 of a second to know that this MSEG is fast without looking at any knobs or hearing it. Imagine that line didnt exist, how would you know the speed of the mini MSEG module without going to the actual tab to check it's scalings?

[Matty686]

Question Urs do you think there's any chance release velocity will end up in the first paid release. if not can you reassure me its still on your todo list. its the main way I plan to make Mono lead synths using zebra 3. I am a tad anxious about it still as I am still mapping out the possibility space of how I am going to use zebra 3 in the long run. mainly if I can count on release velocity or if I should be planning to use pressure as my main articulator. pressure is much harder to hand compose on the piano roll as I said before. I'm really just trying to manage my expectations.

[magickalmutagen]

The GUI's modulation rate / amount animations etc could also be optional, i.e. toggleable on / off, and when off ideally cost no extra CPU cycles. Also, toggleable without having to menu-dive (e.g. single-clicking the Zebra 3 logo or some dedicated button).

There is, however, something to be said about the lack of visual noise without modulation animations everywhere (I find u-he plugins naturally tend to move my attention more towards listening because of their mostly static appearances), but they do have their benefits too when it comes to learning a softsynth and understanding presets.

Some, like myself, also appreciate animated feedback in general use, but if integrated poorly, it can end up hurting the aesthetics more than helping: I'd say any animations should be subtle enough to not be unnecessarily grabbing your attention when just looking at the interface in general, but obvious enough when your intention is to notice them.

The expectations of the modern synth user (which there are always a constant influx of) is what you should be appealing to in my opinion; keep your u-he DNA and implement some tasteful visual feedback and you'll have the fanboys and girls you'll need for the next 10+ years until Zebr4 comes out

[machinesworking]

At the end of the day it's still a business, you gotta cater to the bigger crowd if you want to success (it's not like Z3 doesnt sell, but you know what I mean in this context). Urs and his team will never be able to find a perfect solution that satisfies both ends of the spectrum (Zebra 2 users <----> Serum/PS users) because it simply does not exist.

I don't know anyone who doesn't like the Pigments GUI (barring the new Macro buttons), or the new Absynth 6 GUI. So I do think there's a chance for a real solution. Vital also has a solid GUI that is hard to knock.

[jtsterays]

At the end of the day it's still a business, you gotta cater to the bigger crowd if you want to success (it's not like Z3 doesnt sell, but you know what I mean in this context). Urs and his team will never be able to find a perfect solution that satisfies both ends of the spectrum (Zebra 2 users <----> Serum/PS users) because it simply does not exist.

I don't know anyone who doesn't like the Pigments GUI (barring the new Macro buttons), or the new Absynth 6 GUI. So I do think there's a chance for a real solution. Vital also has a solid GUI that is hard to knock.

I was talking about visualizations & animations. Pigments & Vital belong to the Serum/PS side (everything moves: waveform morph, knob rings, env, LFO, etc...) , Absynth 6 is Zebra2 side (80% of Absynth 6 is static).

[machinesworking]

I was talking about visualizations & animations. Pigments & Vital belong to the Serum/PS side (everything moves: waveform morph, knob rings, env, LFO, etc...) , Absynth 6 is Zebra2 side (80% of Absynth 6 is static).

This is one area where all the naysayers about the Plasmonic GUI IMO get it wrong. With that GUI the modulation is shown, but with thin meters on the mod settings for each slider, barely visible but easily check-able. IMO if he hadn't reversed the corse and fine adjustments for horizontal and vertical sliders he wouldn't have received half the flack.

[_A_O_]

Like many others I've been amazed at how many great sounds have come out with just a little tweaking. I hope we don't all make the same song. jk, I'm sure lots of great music will be made with it.

I have not spent that much time with Z3 yet but did with Zebralette3 a few months ago. I ran into an issue with noise when using pure sounds of just a low fundamental and a few partials, which seems similar to what was discussed in the ZL3 thread. I haven't experimented too deeply since updating but it appears that has been addressed.

I have a lot of studying and rtfm-ing to do to catch up so I will stick to some things which seem obvious or simple for now. I'm using a Windows7 i7 desktop that hasn't been updated in about 12 years with Reaper 7.55. No crashes yet. License card seemed to work ok.

I didn't see any more on the issue bmanic reported related to sluggishness, etc when using the hide mouse pointer option after he said what mouse he had? I experienced some things more or less like that too. Hard to pin down but one thing that seems consistent is, while the mouse button is pressed, the info display changes back from knob value to preset name much more rapidly with the option on than with it off. Both Clap and vst3. I have a Razer Mamba mouse and Logitech wireless keyboard. I have used a Logitech mouse and remapping software in the past but I don't think that is running anymore. I tend to agree with magickalmutagen about how long the info is displayed even with the option off. Maybe as long as the mouse is over the control or at least make it come back when you move the pointer a little.

...The read out in the control bar should keep showing the name of the hovered over control and its value until it is no longer being targeted by the cursor. Alternatively, increase the delay before the read out returns to the default "Zebra 3.0.0 BETA" etc as information is currently visible for too little time.
...

I noticed spamming of Reapers undo history while holding the mouse button down, say with osc tune knob. There are some differences between Clap and vst3 and also Zebra and Zebralette. Merely clicking the knob and not moving it gets you at least two undo points. One on mouse button down, one on button up. (but not in Zebralette3 vst3, only Clap). You get a point after every movement of the mouse, when you stop. Sometimes then Clap will keep firing them off a couple times a second even when you are not moving until you release the button. Not always. I tend to avoid Clap because they seem less reliable. It looks like each point is over a hundred kb. So you can expect a megabyte every time you turn a knob. Undo history file grows fast. I realize it is a big plugin. Maybe it can be optimized to not include so much especially when nothing changes. Maybe we should use Reapers option to save minimal undo?

I notice that changing a preset in Clap will reset a Reaper track control panel knob assigned to a parameter, but the vst3 doesn't. At least, you have to do something like go put the mouse over the track to get it to update.

...Ctrl + left-click to select a number of individual modules in the main grid to be added to a module group
...
The module selection panel does not have an obvious way to exit it (typically a close button).
...

Alt click does what the manual says Control click does. I saw someone report this already.

There are phantom empty spaces in the module dispenser. Like the things that show up after you pick a module to take its place. Some are under the text between sections. Mouse hit zones to close the window are off. Sometimes clicking empty space does nothing.

[*]Shift + Left-click a lane Mute button to solo it instead. Doing so for another lane would solo it and unsolo the former (set it to whatever its mute state was). Simply Left-clicking or Shift + Left-clicking a currently soloed lane would disable soloing (returning all lanes to their underlying mute states). Ctrl + Left-clicking any mute / solo would unset all lanes to unmuted. Ideally soloed lanes would have an S icon instead of M (perhaps yellow).

Are there plans for more advanced soloing? At least the solo command should store whatever modules are already inactive and either be a toggle or offer an unsolo command other than Activate all modules that would restore the condition at the time of soloing.

...And do us a favour: don’t quote the entire thing
...

Ah yeah. magickalmutagen had some other interesting points in that long post but I have to think about them a little and study up some more.
+1 wider shorter mode. Have to set it to 80% just to see the timeline and a sliver of a track in Reaper.
+1 more advanced unison manipulation sounds interesting. Also automation on number of voices parameter causes noise when changing. Havent tried MIDI yet, but maybe that can be improved. Everything else morphs or crossfades...

[buckycore]

My only 2 cents so far is for an equal loy comparable MPE functionality as with the other synths you've implemented with it. I know Zebra 3 is multichannel for sure, as automating pitch bends per notes work fine in Bitwig. But I noticed entire presets sound completely different when set to MPE which doesn't seem happen with Diva,.Hive 2 and Bazile. And I know that's because After touch and the modwheel are seperate Y/Z things that are affected per channel and per note. I remember how insanely different an MPE patch would sound in Equator 2 vs the standard mode.

[Urs]

Question Urs do you think there's any chance release velocity will end up in the first paid release. if not can you reassure me its still on your todo list. its the main way I plan to make Mono lead synths using zebra 3. I am a tad anxious about it still as I am still mapping out the possibility space of how I am going to use zebra 3 in the long run. mainly if I can count on release velocity or if I should be planning to use pressure as my main articulator. pressure is much harder to hand compose on the piano roll as I said before. I'm really just trying to manage my expectations.

I can not promise that Release Velocity will be implemented in Zebra 3.0. But I am confident it will be implemented in 3.1.

[Urs]

My only 2 cents so far is for an equal loy comparable MPE functionality as with the other synths you've implemented with it.

MPE is one of the next things on our ToDo list and will certainly happen before we release it.

(we really wanted this out before x-mas, but apparently had to cut some corners)

[PieBerger]

The GUI's modulation rate / amount animations etc could also be optional, i.e. toggleable on / off, and when off ideally cost no extra CPU cycles. Also, toggleable without having to menu-dive (e.g. single-clicking the Zebra 3 logo or some dedicated button).

Like it's optional in other synths, oh wait, devs spending time on a feature that a significant number of users might disable and probably aren't that fun/interesting to implement either, isn't really a thing....

[bonch]

a kick drum envelope moves too fast to pick up any detail visually, modnoise would be a nightmare, etc etc...

The current dots implementation from other synths are not fully matured/realized tech. Stuff like modnoise shouldn't look like a fast moving dots, it should be actual noise, think TV white noise videos/gifs (colored accordingly too: e.g white noise = white ring, pink noise = pink ring)
Or LFOs going to audio rate smoothly changes from motions to a static ring that also transitions to brighter/hotter color when at even faster rate/higher pitch.

I think colors and animations have the potential to form harmful associations in one's mind between visuals and sound, leading to bad habits and illusions of effect. Try as they might to avoid it, people are inevitably influenced by visuals, especially newcomers. In my opinion, a crucial instinct is eroded if your decision-making is no longer guided entirely by listening to how a sound is changing (or not changing!).

[ffx]

Yeah, visualization of the modulation on the GUI is a must, IMHO Also the popup for visualization should be an extra system window, not trapped inside the gui window. Currently the gui doesn't help much with what's going on, what routed in which way and so on. It's mainly there to look fancy, ok that's nice. It's a lot of missed oppurtunity, and maybe too much thought in Zebra 2 barriers even.

From my point of view, there are a lot of very good GUI examples these days which make work very intuitive and fun, mainly because a lot is visualized, e.g.:
- Current and Vital for overview and easiness
- VPS Avenger for automation interconnection overview
- Phase Plant for simply visualizing everything in detail
- Korg Multi/Poly and Synthmaster 3 for automation overview and showing the exact modulator waveform

I actually think the way Avenger shows a context popup of all used moduators on a knob on right click, in which you also can remove modulators again, such similar thing is currently missing in Zebra 3.

Then you have visually no idea about the amount and speed of the modulator, and also no idea about the resulting modulation on a knob/parameter, this could be shown in that modulation ring on the knob with an additional alpha layer, this seems to be common standard these days. Multi/Poly uses a little dot for that, maybe even better idea.

The modulator itself, be it in the right list, or on the bottom bar, could have a blinking indicator, or any kind of visualization.

Visualing modulation signals speeds up work with it significantly.