Rick Rubin on AI (& now Graeme Revell, too)

[v4p0r]

It's just the fear of subtractive prompts (not this, not his, not this..) that frustrated me in other tasks.

I was under the impression that A.I. does not understand negatives that use "not".
I've just been focusing on what i *do* want first and formost avoiding time wasted on what i don't want. If i do need to stress something with a negative i just prompt "No X".

You mean, it cannot handle the general idea of "not X" well, or it literally cannot understand "not X" well, as in 'n', 'o', 't', space, [some term]?
(and why is "No X" better than "Not X"?)

It appears kind of slow to me asking AI for sounds that come out of synths immediately. The possibility to ask it for songs is good to have for people, including me. But on the other hand I don't know what's wrong about the instruments producing sounds, or me having (quite random) ideas about the song structure. The instruments are faster, you don't type, you just press buttons and keys.

Maybe my communication style or my musical preferences are what makes me want to go on using instruments and not AI (except for a fuzzy quantizer to get rid of my un-tight jittery playing).

I guess I will try asking Suno about what I would like to have. If it goes the same way as it does with programming, I will be quite motivated, because the AI output there doesn't even work quite often (which depends on me the user and my idea about AI).

[Gamma-UT]

You mean, it cannot handle the general idea of "not X" well, or it literally cannot understand "not X" well, as in 'n', 'o', 't', space, [some term]?
(and why is "No X" better than "Not X"?)

LLMs have no inherent understanding. They use probabilistic/statistical models. So, the only way to express "not" is to find the opposite of something and use that as the term. The prompt manipulation the guardrail software does behind the scenes might be able to do that sometimes but, realistically, it's like Homer Simpson. If you keep telling it not to do something it will probably try to do the thing because it sees the thing and matches that to all the things that are close to that thing.

[v4p0r]

LLMs have no inherent understanding. They use probabilistic/statistical models. So, the only way to express "not" is to find the opposite of something and use that as the term. The prompt manipulation the guardrail software does behind the scenes might be able to do that sometimes but, realistically, it's like Homer Simpson. If you keep telling it not to do something it will probably try to do the thing because it sees the thing and matches that to all the things that are close to that thing.

Good to know! Never realized I stressed the guardrail software. I just assumed it was some solved issue. To think about how the LLM actually needs input for output, that's cool.

I think something like this is also the core AI issue for me. I have the 'positives' (some synths that I like). Looking for what they can't do would be kind of weird. So, no motivation to change that, but I'll see.

[Gamma-UT]

Good to know! Never realized I stressed the guardrail software. I just assumed it was some solved issue. To think about how the LLM actually needs input for output, that's cool.

Actually, guardrail is probably the wrong name, but I couldn't think of a neat term for the plumbing based on things like Langchain and the guardrail stuff they wrap around the AI itself.

[VOODOO U]

You mean, it cannot handle the general idea of "not X" well, or it literally cannot understand "not X" well, as in 'n', 'o', 't', space, [some term]?
(and why is "No X" better than "Not X"?)

The latter. If i understand correctly A.I. doesn't compute N-O-T.
Only use No X after stating the opposite of what is not wanted so the A.I. sees what needs to be done. Sometimes the No X adds further emphasis.
So if you don't want reverb you prompt:
Dry recording, no reverb. Or just Dry recording at first and see if it works.
I think it also depends on the model.

[BONES]

So a good example would be that if you want music without vocals, don't say "no vocals", say "instrumental music" in your prompt.

Those who bitch and moan about artists not getting paid, I d put money down that those whiners have downloaded songs before without paying. Maybe once or twice or maybe even a hundred times.

I'll bet they all have Spotify accounts, too, and stopped actually buying music the day they signed up. Or they are people who think the world owes them a living and anything that gets in the way of that is inherently evil, when the reality is that it orders of magnitude more difficult to earn a living in music today than it was 30 years ago, regardless of how much talent you might have, with or without AI.

I've tried an AI service (one that came up when googling for Suno) and told it to make happy game music, and the result included singing. So I gave up because I suspected that it will require too much prompt text to go on.

I'm a bit the same. My bandmate is right into it but I find the process tedious in the extreme so I'm happy to leave it all to him.

BTW: Here's a "pro" tip. Explain to an LLM what you are trying to do and ask it for the prompt to give to the music AI, e.g., Suno.

A similar trick is that once you get what you were after, ask the AI what prompt you could have used to get straight to it.

Most people do not, have not, and never will care about musicianship... It would be nice if people took pride in doing work

I don't see how those two things are mutually exclusive. e.g. Most people are surprised to learn that I can't draw, yet I've spent the last 30 years earning a living as a graphic artist. Physical skills simply aren't anywhere near as important as they used to be, especially when it comes to the creative arts. There was a time when a lack of physical skill was a barrier but that's gone now and good riddance. I'm as un-co as they come, no amount of practice would ever make me more than a barely competent musician. In the 1960s that would have precluded me from any kind of career in music or graphic design, so any creativity I might have had would have gone to waste. Computers changed all that for me and in doing so literally changed the course of my life. I don't see how that kind of empowerment can ever be a bad thing.

Music is just the means by which they can get the thing they actually want.

I think that is probably true of every successful artist. Success is more important than the medium. That said, there has to be talent and creativity as well, but success comes from the drive to succeed and plenty of talented people never make it because they lack that drive/desire and get trampled by those who have it.

be content whether or not you ever get recognition, money, etc. An artist is going to make art whether there is competition or not.

Exactly! You have to be happy within yourself, seeking validation outside of yourself in an uncaring world leads to a life of disappointment and misery.

Who in hell wants to "work"??? If you're not having fun and playing then you'll just stress yourself out to a slow death.

That will depend on your attitude. I actually value hard work, the satisfaction of knowing you have done everything you can to ensure the best outcome. Only children think everything has to be "fun", adults should know better.

Taking pride in working is insane. That doesn't mean avoid responsibility. It's the idea of finding the fun in the work because then it's no longer work, it's play.

Given the choice, I'd rather work than play any day. Playing always feels like a waste of time, a means of filling the hours and days before you die. It's insubstantial, inconsequential and selfish. Any satisfaction you get from it is fleeting at best. I derive no real satisfaction from it at all.

[VOODOO U]

I actually value hard work,

Reading the quote below:

My bandmate is right into it but I find the process tedious in the extreme so I'm happy to leave it all to him.

No. You don't value hard work.

the satisfaction of knowing you have done everything you can to ensure the best outcome.

If hard work alone ensured the best outcome all the hard working laymen of modern society would be wealthy. And yes everybody in a modern civilized social environment wants to be wealthy. Those who say otherwise are liars.

Only children think everything has to be "fun", adults should know better.

If adults knew "better" there would be no civilized structure where one has to do tedious boring tasks to buy an apple you can get from a tree.
As you can see, an adult cannot "know better" because it's A Dolt. Stupid. Why? Because it is hypnotized and controlled by society's working-class fear. One cannot function at 100% under this condition and thus it operates on A Dolt mode.
Fun is the free medicine to remedy an adult's working-class stress no matter if it's temporary.
An adult that seems smart and lives successfully more likely than not has reached that success because they love what they do. When you love what you do you are having fun. It compensates for all the stressful side-effects one gets when reaching a certain level of success in modern society.

Given the choice, I'd rather work than play any day.

Well then get to work and start prompting. Don't delegate all that hard work to your bandmate. That's just plain laziness.

Playing always feels like a waste of time

And work isn't?? Work is the biggest waste of life. When my dad and I had a small business buying used vehicles and reselling them, we "worked hard" and didn't feel a thing because we were having too much fun doing it. They say "hard work pays off" I say if you're hard at play you've already made it.

a means of filling the hours and days before you die.

Like having a job where one has to WORK.

insubstantial,

Like having a job where one has to WORK

and selfish

Agreed. Having your bandmate do all the grunt work with prompt duties while you play around with VST presets is selfish. Shame shame shame.

I derive no real satisfaction from it at all.

Making music and performing live on stage is not fun? Liar.

[BONES]

No. You don't value hard work.

Tedium and hard work are not the same thing.

If hard work alone ensured the best outcome all the hard working laymen of modern society would be wealthy.

How do you figure that? As much as they'd like you to believe otherwise, the world doesn't have to revolve around money. Someone who digs ditches for a living will work hard his entire life but he'll never be rich. My industry doesn't pay well, either, so no matter how hard I work I'll never be rich. Lucky for me I don't care about the money, as long as I have enough to do the things I want to do. But I do care about the work, I do care that what goes to air looks as good as I can possibly make it in the time I have to get it done. It's a matter of personal and professional pride and it's what makes the hard work worth it to me.

And yes everybody in a modern civilized social environment wants to be wealthy.

I don't. In fact, whenever I see that word I instantly switch off. It's a bait word they use to reel you in. Sure, most other people are, because humans are inherently greedy and self-absorbed, but that's a big part of the reason I hate them.

If adults knew "better" there would be no civilized structure where one has to do tedious boring tasks to buy an apple you can get from a tree.

No, that's exactly why it's like that.

As you can see, an adult cannot "know better" because it's A Dolt.

Here's the thing, society has worked out that it is much easier to control people if they never grow up, so they encourage grown-ups to continue to behave like children.

Stupid. Why? Because it is hypnotized and controlled by society's working-class fear. One cannot function at 100% under this condition and thus it operates on A Dolt mode.

Here's the next thing, most people really are dolts, they are operating at capacity.

Fun is the free medicine to remedy an adult's working-class stress no matter if it's temporary.

No, that's just wimping out. I think it's pathetic. I have no time for people who can't handle reality.

An adult that seems smart and lives successfully more likely than not has reached that success because they love what they do.

Not really. Most public servants in this country, for example, do not work hard, do not particularly enjoy their work and earn around double what their output would be worth in the private sector. They're happy because they are onto a good lurk. You don't even need to be a good doctor or a good lawyer to earn a good living.

Most, though, don't love their work for its own sake, they love the work because of the status and/or power, perceived and/or real, it confers upon them and they're happy to delegate the actual work to underlings. They are driven by laziness and greed.

When you love what you do you are having fun.

Not always, or even often. What I love about my work and our music is the result, the finished product. I don't like the actual work at all but if I don't do the work, or even if I half-arse it, then the results aren't going to be there, which means there'll be no satisfaction from it, either. You don't have to love your work to love the benefits of working hard.

It compensates for all the stressful side-effects one gets when reaching a certain level of success in modern society.

Those are constructs, stresses you almost always put upon yourself. Society only has as much control over you as you give it. My workplace can be very stressful but one of the first things I tell aa newbie is not to get stressed but to get angry, because if they don't have enough time to deliver their work, it's because someone else didn't give them enough time or asked for more than they should reasonably have expected. So you get angry and you tell them "no".

Well then get to work and start prompting. Don't delegate all that hard work to your bandmate. That's just plain laziness.

Trust me, he's got the easy job. I'm the idiot who has to take the AI stuff and turn it into a Studio Pro project with VSTi.

And work isn't??

No, work allows me to pay my rent, buy food, run my car and spend money on plugins. It takes me out of my own little bubble and forces me to be part of the wider world for a few days a week. Work is a good thing. I've been of pension age since last October, I could retire any time I wanted to but I see no reason to give up work.

Work is the biggest waste of life. When my dad and I had a small business buying used vehicles and reselling them, we "worked hard" and didn't feel a thing because we were having too much fun doing it.

Ripping off old ladies, I'm sure that'd be a hoot.

Like having a job where one has to WORK.

Sure, only without any sense of satisfaction.

Making music and performing live on stage is not fun? Liar.

No, it's cathartic. It feels necessary but you'll never see either of us smiling or laughing on stage.

[chagzuki]

Given the choice, I'd rather work than play any day. Playing always feels like a waste of time, a means of filling the hours and days before you die. It's insubstantial, inconsequential and selfish. Any satisfaction you get from it is fleeting at best. I derive no real satisfaction from it at all.

I think I came to a conclusion very early in life that play in an artistic domain was my natural mode. My psychology appeared to be very much geared towards that sort of thing, and good stuff seemed to happen as a result (it was a lot easier when I was younger and with less responsibility). I stumbled upon ideas around flow states, which seemed to provide validation. The qualitative difference between music originating from those states/that kind of process, and the majority of commercial music, seemed absolutely clear to me.

Many years later I do find myself thinking the same thing; I still find the most satisfaction in the spontaneous process of making stuff, allowing ideas to develop in that state of relaxed concentration. It should be said though, that once an idea seems worth pursuing then there's a whole load of 'work', or diligence required to push it to its logical conclusion. The play is really the aspect which allows new and unexpected things to occur.
The slightly paradoxical bit though is that I've tended to experience depression alongside the highs, and I was often thinking to myself that this shouldn't be the case as this is the activity I'd told myself is the one I'm supposed to enjoy the most.
I guess on the creative ride, depression results when it seems that one's best efforts are leading nowhere (hopelessness, as is the case a lot of the time), and then there's exaltation on the flip side when something surprising happens. It's inherently bi-polar.
But then there's also the let-down after something is finished and it no longer seems imbued with the amazing qualities that were promised during the creative process. That let-down is probably necessary to motivate starting something new.

[eassae]

Playing always feels like a waste of time, a means of filling the hours and days before you die. It's insubstantial, inconsequential and selfish. Any satisfaction you get from it is fleeting at best. I derive no real satisfaction from it at all.

Watch out! Bones may become a "dull boy."

[Bombadil]

[Zeisner]

Making music and performing live on stage is not fun? Liar.

Just listen to Novakill and watch Bones performing on stage on YouTube. That tells you everything you need to know.

[vurt]

but you'll never see either of us smiling or laughing on stage.

like the pet shop boys

[Bunny_boy]

The direction of this thread reminded me of this for some reason

[BONES]

I still find the most satisfaction in the spontaneous process of making stuff, allowing ideas to develop in that state of relaxed concentration. It should be said though, that once an idea seems worth pursuing then there's a whole load of 'work', or diligence required to push it to its logical conclusion. The play is really the aspect which allows new and unexpected things to occur.

I am happy to leave the ideas to my bandmate. Once he hands 'em off to me, I'll do the grunt work to get 'em into usable shape. It still leaves plenty of creative opportunities without the "play" aspect sucking up my time. I can well understand how that part of the process could lead to depression, I find little enough joy (or anything else) in it. I like to have something to do, a task with a defined end-point that I can work towards.