Hey, MuTools. (Why isn't MuLab more popular?)

[solipsvs]

im looking at it from a much more shallow pov. popular means something different to everybody. number sold is part of the wish? do we want shallow buyers? i estimate there are a lot of them out there. to include those who would buy and then never get deep. do we want those?

shallow buyers wont stick around if they feel its too hard to learn. but they might buy if it loox cool! of course the few would get to a deeper part of mulab. those users are assets but how many are ackchyually there?

[solipsvs]

so guys... could i boil it down to 'mulab is not meant for lowbrow users'? we could just say this and leave it at that. theres no intention to make it an easy approachable platform for making trap or hip hop or sample based simple music? because those kids are plenty and they all has money to blow on being a producer. ackchyually mulab needs to be social media influencer friendly, hence the suggestion for a really really ridiculously good looking UI. to get the £ow b₹ow u$€₹$ on board.

[pekbro]

I think it looks really good myself. I prefer it to most tbh. Maybe, I do like a more traditional mixer tho.

[solipsvs]

hey maybe a low brow app meant for public transportation! so we can make hip hop on the bus on our way to work for amazon! or UPS!

[pekbro]

Low brow better than uni-brow. No brow has already been monopolized by Syd Barrett.

[4u610h346]

hey maybe a low brow app meant for public transportation! so we can make hip hop on the bus on our way to work for amazon! or UPS!

I'd think low brow, by only my immediately interpretation, would be more like non-studio, non-producer, and not even hobbyist ware. Something more like an "angry birds" version of a DAW. Something like a sequencer pad, with included synths/samples/fx; and maybe you could include some "phone recorded" vocals (with filters and fx).

There is SunVox (for Android) which is specifically for people that love making music "on-the-go". But I would not put this in a "low brow" box. Not only is in intended for a more "tracker" oriented audience, it provides modest "but functional" sound engineering features; that i am "positive" would scare away a novice. But, it looks cool! People on the transit bus would thing yer some kind of techno-DJ-hacker genius. Note: Sorry, if I offended and transit bus persons; as I know many are not duped so easily

I don't mean "angry birds" to be insulating. There are a lot of things you can do on a phone, that absolutely rank as full studio DAW operations. I mean it more like as something that lets you get a quick beat out of your head, and recorded on something. A "low brow" quick-jam-tool.

I'm not an app guy. I don't feel like I actually own the phone, or apps that can be installed on it, in the same way as owning a guitar or MuLab. But I'm sure an app could get the job done. I'd probably prefer a cheap hand held gizmo, that had physical pads and knobs. Something with built in samples and synths, that you can change by uploading them from your PC (over USB).

Edit: Should point out, MuLab can easily be reduced to a visual pad sequencer, with knobs. It would actually look pretty cool. You could use a beat matrix, and the included visual drum synth plugin (actual visual pads). If I can get around to it, I'll make a Video on it; based on Captain Pikant (youtube) and his NIN - Closer cover.

There is a basic free version of MuLab (ver that you could play with. Maybe, I could use that version for the video?

[solipsvs]

back when fruity loops was getting mad attention which helped to build its legendary status, it wasnt so deep, and was used by beginners in middle school. there was no deep synth you needed a degree to use, there were samples and knobs that were comfortably understood by hip hop teens. this was a pathway upwards. in the right moment. the moment has changed away from laptops and daws with the times. we now have apple tablets and phones, this is the aging status quo. its probably getting late in the game to ackchyually innovate but im sure some great ideas could still make it notable. im confident there is plenty of bang in the ipads these days for power hungry synths etc.

if there really is a desire for more mutools users, this could be an opportunity to get in front of a lot of current low/mid/high brow users. but so far all im seeing is 'buzz off, we like it where it is' which is the reason mulab isnt more popular. thats it right there!

mutools could be more prolific given a can do attitude and efforts in that direction.

look at koala sampler, a recent come up in this same market mutools would compete in. almost everybody has it and they have capitalized and gotten huge because of it. they are still moving upwards in rank and im guessing they will have a bright future if they apply themselves and take advantage of opportunity.

so what does mutools ackchyually want? to stay where it is? or to get in front of a crowd that loves impulse buying (ipad and iphone users)? you sell cheaply there and get them to buy full price for the desktop. its a route many high level titles go. you can get expensive plugins on ipad for a fraction of what they cost on desktop. look at fab filter, notoriously expensive plugins. on ipad they practically give them away.

that could be mutools! is it ackchyually worth it?

[solipsvs]

but! most if not all of that stuff is ackchyually very advanced in the loox department. so its not just bullshit

[4u610h346]

we now have apple tablets and phones, this is the aging status quo. its probably getting late in the game to actually innovate but im sure some great ideas could still make it notable. im confident there is plenty of bang in the ipads these days for power hungry synths etc.

You are absolutely, Right. I'm not saying Mutools won't go there. My point is for "my" personal use. You may see my view as "aging" but there is not a lack of "young people" finding that the app culture locks you into a "upgrade or exist degraded" culture. This "culture" is going to increase, and is "absolutely" the path forward. But there are lots of nice tools available, in the mobile app market. Mutools might go there. It is just my opinion, for my needs, that I'd like tools outside of that culture. For example, an update is not suddenly going to slow my device down, to the point that is is nearly useless (as it is nearing end of support), with no option to downgrade. If my device reaches end-of-life support, I can still install different applications on it. My device does not require "jail breaking" to return value to the money I spent on it.

if there really is a desire for more mutools users, this could be an opportunity to get in front of a lot of current low/mid/high brow users. but so far all im seeing is 'buzz off, we like it where it is' which is the reason mulab isnt more popular. thats it right there!

I hope I didn't make you feel like you need to buzz off? I certainly agree, that MuLab could end up as a mobile app. While we all do "like it where it is" there is nothing stopping it from being elsewhere, too. Jo is the only developer. It won't end up as a mobile app, overnight. But I can't speak much to that, as I am just a user. Jo's intentions are his own. Do please keep in mind that there are plenty of popular DAWs, in the non "mobile" market. So, there are other things to address, outside of just the mobile market.

But as far as your opinion, on the mobile market, I am sure no one really disagrees with you. There may be "semantics" or a "dynamic" of you comments, that have cause some people a need to express there differing opinions. And its the Internet, some people might feel like you are trolling. It can be really hard to tell the difference between a troll, and a individual struggling to get their opinion across. I'm sure you get that, right? The Internet can be a crappy pace, and some people might have just gotten really used to trolls being everywhere.

mutools could be more prolific given a can do attitude and efforts in that direction.

No doubt. Please don't mistake "us" users, for Mutools/MuLab. Each of "us" have our own unique attitude. I can be a pain, sometimes. Just ask Jo. But I don't intent to be. I'm just probably a person slightly inside the pantentic part of the autistic spectrum.

look at koala sampler, a recent come up in this same market mutools would compete in. almost everybody has it and they have capitalized and gotten huge because of it. they are still moving upwards in rank and im guessing they will have a bright future if they apply themselves and take advantage of opportunity.

It could happen, one day.

so what does mutools actually want? to stay where it is? or to get in front of a crowd that loves impulse buying (ipad and iphone users)? you sell cheaply there and get them to buy full price for the desktop. its a route many high level titles go. you can get expensive plugins on ipad for a fraction of what they cost on desktop. look at fab filter, notoriously expensive plugins. on ipad they practically give them away.

For me, I've already mentioned my preference. I'll have to pay the price, from my preference, on my own.

I probably did judge you a little wrong. For a moment I got the impression that you were disappointed you couldn't have MuLab for you mobile device. So some of my last response was targeted, at trying to explain how it could still do the simple things that some mobile devices apps.

I hope my disagreement about mobile apps being a good definition for "low brow" wasn't offensive. Somewhere inside, I was hopping you'd check the SunVox project out; taking with you my heed, that it wasn't a simple app. But I certainly did intend to make you feel like Mutools/MuLab couldn't be a place for you.

If really, you're just expressing that MuLab hasn't tapped into the available mobile market share, I'm sorry for missing the mark there.

In case you do have access to a cool sequencer pad app (some might even be free) here is a link to a cool video, showing how a simple app could really make some impressive, fun, and cool music. The video is using a midi device sequencer pad, but a mobile app would probably work very similar, if not easier (in some cases).

[solipsvs]

im ackchyually answering the title of the thread. ive been using software since 1992 on a mac classic with midi only cubase. im aware of quite a lot of software. you could say i am a software freakazoid! i like hardware too. got plenty of that. im looking for ultimate flexibility with easy meta level interaction and mutools is a strong contender that just isnt as popular as it could be. and jo doesnt know what to do about it. i suspect he has tried to intellectualize it to the point of indecision. but i dunno! cant tell. but i can tell theres been no visible movement on this front since i was here last. i think its a dirtier game than the intellectual space jo stays in and i have empathy for that.

thanks, youve been a refrain... a voice of sanity in the wilderness...

yeah trolls *sigh* (dont follow the white rabbit)

[4u610h346]

im ackchyually answering the title of the thread. ive been using software since 1992 on a mac classic and cubase. im aware of quite a lot of software. you could say i am a software freakazoid! i like hardware too. got plenty of that. im looking for ultimate flexibility with easy meta level interaction and mutools is a strong contender that just isnt as popular as it could be.

It might be OT, but I am curious as to which hardware/OS your target is. If I actually had anything insightful to share, I could DM it (unless you already have a thread, somewhere).

i suspect he has tried to intellectualize it to the point of indecision. but i dunno! cant tell.

With your software/hardware eclectic(?) nature, you're probably already aware of Jo's software history. I'd say being a work of passion, may influence some of Jo's choices. There are likely attributes "of the code base structure and style" that carry invisible nuances, on our end. He has mentioned looking into the Linux world, and done some work to improve minor issues on WINE. He is also adding several "harder to notice features" that don't get wide recognition; some of which I've not always seen mentioned anywhere, until someone asks for help with some specific task.

As for "intellectualize it to the point of indecision", I think that would be pretty easy to see that; but I'd suggest that the influencing markers "to that conclusion" are a result of his interest in supporting many user-base-centric features. If a request is reasonable, and relatively feasible ( development wise), he seem to do what he can. This can make it hard to see a clear model of direction. But, I can only speculate so far, as to the "influencing markers" that bring you to that conclusion.

i think its a dirtier game than the intellectual space jo stays in and i have empathy for that.

No doubt. Even the obvious surface, of the game, is tedious.

thanks, youve been a refrain... a voice of sanity in the wilderness...

I appreciate that kindness. Thank you.

Even though "sanity" may be debatable, the comment still carried a pleasant affect.

Jo's "user base" support model "may" be responsible for some of the protective "like" interactions you've experienced. Obviously, I can't speak with full credibility, on that. However, being in the cult of MuLab doesn't absolve us of having our own MuLab gripes. We happily accept those gripes, fully aware that we are a needy and picky bunch.

[solipsvs]

ive been a muzys user from the beginning, a mulab user from the beginning (interrupted) and ive been around the block several times so im ackchyually not afraid of trolls or honestly do i need to be told what motivates them. im very aware of human nature and i dont really feel shame easily. look out! or attack at will! either way you wont get under my skin, im over it. i like to express what i see as truth. its everyones responsibility to know where the boundary between you and i lies.. so in other words, i know what is me and what is you. even if im attacked it wont shut me up or make me sulk or fear you. im not a group thinker and im not a cult member. i am genuinely enthused and love to get novel workflows to move organically. ironically i dont consider my music to be all that good!

lately, ive been using the single board computers like raspberry pi, orange pi, radxa, lattepanda etc. i make them into goofy euro modules even tho i cant stand most euro. theres some stuff tho thats extremely amazing. i think i prefer mostly desktop synths and other boxes, you get more for your money and theres less to fill your brain with. focus is wasted when you have too much to pay attention to.

ive got me eye on these lately

https://mogozen.com/CGDeck

[tiger001]

surely not to run Mulab on it?

[whyterabbyt]

Exposure. Different people, doing different kinds of things; and writing or doing videos about it. That would help with "part" of the market..
.
.
.
Why isn't MuLab more popular? People need to see what it can do, and demo it. They need to see that the affordability doesn't mean it's cheap. They need to see people exercising MuLab's potentials, and not just as mock demonstrations. People need to see that they can get excited about doing what they want to do. That will be the test. Does the demonstration of use, establish that "even" you can figure out how to do this the way you imagine it.

quoted as useful insight. almost to the simplicity of being that versus live or fls, mulab doesnt have ten thousand wannabe 'influencers' on YT trying to tell you how to make your 'killer' <insert dance subgenre here> track/sound/beat

but yeah trolls *sigh* (dont ever contradict anything solipsvs says, otherwise you'll be accused of trolling yourself)

[MuTools]

@everyone:
Please try to avoid personal attacks.
Even if one makes such mistake, then another should not cultivate it.
Please be as constructive on topic as possible.
Thanks!