Some thoughts about AI acceptance

[ksandvik]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

[Zeisner]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

[bermudagold]

except, bones and wagtunes, have both been at it since before i was born*, and are proponents of the ai.

* - vurt, not the entity behind the curtain.

good point...question is are they anecdotal data points in the tails of the distribution or do they represent a real cohort significant enough to be a threat to the premise...i cant say but i lean to the former

[bermudagold]

@bermudagold:

Mmmh... interesting opinion - especially about the psyche of many
musicians here.

... most of the differing viewpoints are implicitly and/or subconsciously driven by dreams of fame and money from music whether they admit it or or not

I simply cannot believe that the proportion of these people in this forum -
and in the scene in general - is predominant.

I think you understimate human nature...many studies have been done on maslows hierarchy of needs and the impetus for action matrix that drives humans...there is sacrifice, discipline, work ethic, and tradeoffs that must be made to achieve any of civilizations metrics of success...the controlling variables of compulsion are largely unsavory..."vanity is the devil's favorite sin because it is the most common"...there are next to zero truly altruistic activities in human nature and doing anything "purely for the love" is quantifiably overestimated

From my perspective, the crux of the matter lies elsewhere entirely, namely
where AI becomes "creative" and thus enters the realm of primal human
creation. Whether in painting, visual arts, or music: as soon as AI occupies
this territory, it destroys human activity — and thus us humans altogether.

as soon as the AI ​​becomes creative itself, as soon as it
composes and produces entire songs on its own, a red line is crossed.

Because creating a work of art or a song is connected with a lot of history,
sweat, feeling and the desire for expression of a single person - and thus
the foundation of our art in general.

If we let AI into this field, it will quickly flood it with a surplus of artworks and
musical pieces – and dominate the commercial mass market for art and
music. Regardless of what individual psychological intentions people may
have regarding fame, recognition, and wealth, regardless of the skills and
passion human musicians may possess: AI is millions of times faster,
cheaper – and it can also compete in terms of quality.

this has already happened in ALL creative verticals...all the AI threads lol...here is my take on AI in the creative fields from this one
viewtopic.php?p=9162391&hilit=creative#p9162391

"cause the general Populus knows nothing of mathematics and engineering so they get caught up in the sensationalist hyperbole black box being called "AI"...they weren't following expert systems, computer vision, genetic algorithms, neural networks for the last 30 yrs...heuristics and metaheuristics have been at play all around them...medical field has known for well over a decade that software makes better medical imaging diagnosis than humans...software made the correct diagnosis 80% of the time...human doctors 60%...and when presented with the same data unknowingly a short time later, human doctors would make a different diagnosis 25% of the time...software doesn't get tired at the end of a 12 hr shift in ER, have low blood sugar from missing lunch, or be emotionally off balance from the angry phone call he just received from his wife

metaheuristics "AI" has been operating in commercial airlines to prevent them flying into each other since 1981..what did people think airline autopilots were?...airline industry has been trying to reduce the legally required amount of pilots on board aircraft for decades...eons before anybody had conceived a tesla

the point of AI was to do the things humans are bad at better...freeing us up for newfound time to pursue the creative tasks...that's why the interest and amount of venture capital being thrown at AI in the arts is bewildering to most of the pioneers"

[bermudagold]

On topic: no, I think people with experience will find AI can support their workflow if they use it for the ends it can help with. I've not yet seen much discussion here about production engineering adoption of AI (ignoring the generative AI doing its own work).

production engineering has always adopted "AI"..."Art" as a humanist endeavor is different...the point of AI was to do the things humans are bad at better...freeing us up for newfound time to pursue the creative tasks...that's why the interest and amount of venture capital being thrown at AI in the arts is bewildering to the pioneers...AI in the arts is kinda antithetical to the existential purpose and role of art in human society

u gave up music?...u still got that trap kat in ur avatar?

[bermudagold]

from the "Does AI make the plugin industry obsolete" thread....

so how you view AI is directly related to how close you believe you were to "making it"...

I think that is utter nonsense.

Insecure people whose self-worth is derived from the approval of others will feel more threatened by AI than people who make music for their own enjoyment and have confidence in what they’re doing. When you make music for yourself and don’t view it as a competition, it doesn’t matter what anyone else is doing. That is the real dividing line.

sure...but what percentage are they of the total?...this very forum flies in the face of that...look at the number of threads, topics of threads, popularity of threads by page count that embody the opposite spirit...if people were making music for themselves and competition wasn't involved, they wouldn't obsess over the things that they do which dominate the zeitgeist

[bermudagold]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

i tend to agree...many people love all the AI "lite" tools that existed prior...midi packs, loops, construction kits, chord generators, generative midi...look at the number of those products in the market and on kvr database...look how many threads they generate...look how many pages they run for...and people are drawn to those tools for largely the same reasons others are drawn to AI...the main rationale is usually "I just like to have them for writers block"...IME that is largely a cop out...writers block has become mythological in its prevalence...most composers and musicians I know almost never have writers block...people I know who really love music almost always have something personal to say musically and almost find it difficult NOT to express themselves and what they are currently going through musically...chances are if you have "writers block" a lot...u may have the wrong hobby

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

[zerocrossing]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

Sure, but it’s not just going to happen. I’m trying to start a movement of people who spend some time each day on finding and listening to new music made by humans. If each of us does this, and tries to encourage more people to join, we can stave off the AI slop. We let it happen by creating a system that doesn’t share and support the humans.

[ghettosynth]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

i tend to agree...many people love all the AI "lite" tools that existed prior...midi packs, loops, construction kits, chord generators, generative midi...look at the number of those products in the market and on kvr database...look how many threads they generate...look how many pages they run for...and people are drawn to those tools for largely the same reasons others are drawn to AI...the main rationale is usually "I just like to have them for writers block"...IME that is largely a cop out...writers block has become mythological in its prevalence...most composers and musicians I know almost never have writers block...people I know who really love music almost always have something personal to say musically and almost find it difficult NOT to express themselves and what they are currently going through musically...chances are if you have "writers block" a lot...u may have the wrong hobby

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

[bermudagold]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

yeah but where will that market be?...where is it currently?...spotify is the global #1 mechanism for consumption...until the infrastructure and consumer psychology and consumer practices are in place,...your dream wont come to fruition

[bermudagold]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

[ghettosynth]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

Sure, but it’s not just going to happen. I’m trying to start a movement of people who spend some time each day on finding and listening to new music made by humans. If each of us does this, and tries to encourage more people to join, we can stave off the AI slop. We let it happen by creating a system that doesn’t share and support the humans.

This sounds a bit like Herbalife without a good marketing plan. KVR membership isn't a drop in an ocean of global influence. You will, at best, converge on the asymptote of apathy.

[ghettosynth]

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

That you think that was the point is the problem. The point was that they were a tool, using technology of the day, to combat writer's block. Talented musicians used those tools to combat writer's block and have said so publicly. Hence, your attempt at a broad assertion that people who combat writer's block are not serious musicians is, at best, flawed.

I don't think that this forum will succeed in finding the characterization of AI use that is both truth-adjacent and satisfying to their egos and existential concerns.

Oh no.

Igor Stravinsky. He wrote in Poetics of Music that self imposed constraints were essential to creativity. He deliberately limited pitch materials or rhythmic vocabulary to force invention within boundaries. This was not framed as “writer’s block,” but explicitly as a method to prevent creative stagnation.

Arnold Schoenberg. He developed the twelve tone method in part as a systematic compositional framework. In lectures and writings, he described the system as a way to ensure structural continuity and avoid the paralysis of arbitrary choice.

Paul Hindemith. In The Craft of Musical Composition, he outlined rule based harmonic systems intended to provide a dependable structural foundation for composing when inspiration was unreliable.

Aaron Copland. In lectures and essays, he described working at the piano methodically, sketching small motives and manipulating them through inversion and rhythmic alteration when ideas stalled.

Leonard Bernstein. In interviews and his Norton Lectures, he discussed recombination and motivic transformation as a way of generating material when facing compositional dead ends.

John Cage. He explicitly used chance operations, including the I Ching, to bypass personal taste and creative blockage. He described this as a way to remove ego based hesitation from decision making.

Steve Reich. He has described process music as a generative system. Once a process is defined, the piece unfolds logically, which reduces the need for continual subjective decision making.

Philip Glass. He has spoken about disciplined daily work routines and modular additive structures as practical ways to continue composing even when inspiration is absent.

Krzysztof Penderecki. In interviews, he described turning to graph notation and unconventional sound organization as a way of breaking through periods of stagnation in traditional harmonic thinking.

Hans Zimmer. In film scoring interviews, he has discussed building sound palettes first and using technological experimentation to break through block.

[jancivil]

AI-"generated" music has no bearing on my actual life. If I had offspring, let alone grandchildren I'd have a different outlook, because the future looks bleak for more than just this one reason.

I'm not anti-AI, but around here it begins to look like most people have bought the hype hook, line and concrete block. The very notion of "AI acceptance" hypes shit unproportionally AFAIC.
IE: regarding the future of chart music and of Spotify, I should care? AI is not going to affect any music I or people with my interests even bother with. It is in no way a creative force.

In the bigger picture, it being the antithesis of creativity will affect society very negatively; however I'll not be here to see the wider ramifications, I don't suppose.

[jancivil]

{by "it" I mean "AI-generated" music^}
I presume some form of machine learning is working in eg., Neutron 4, I'm not against it.
OTOH, an AI exemplar, eg., Suno is by no stretch of the imagination a musician; here are two completely different subjects.