Some thoughts about AI acceptance

[jamcat]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

Sure, but it’s not just going to happen. I’m trying to start a movement of people who spend some time each day on finding and listening to new music made by humans. If each of us does this, and tries to encourage more people to join, we can stave off the AI slop. We let it happen by creating a system that doesn’t share and support the humans.

But this is kind of the problem to begin with, isn't it?
It used to be that the music culture was alive and vibrant, and didn't need any movement to do the tedious work of slogging through looking under rocks to find worthwhile new music to listen to. It was just there, all around you. People took it for granted. They took music videos on MTV for granted. They took FM radio for granted. They took bona fide rock stars for granted.

The real problem is music peaked. When people want to hear music, they put on something that was made decades ago. The same is true for great films. The truth is the train already left the station a while ago, and you were either on it, or you weren't.

And so the entertainment industry stopped caring, and the culture stopped striving, and people stopped listening. Which left it primed for the machines to take over.

[harvon]

I don't mind the AI slop taking over Spotify, there's then good market for fresh and innovative music done by real musicians.

Sure, but it’s not just going to happen. I’m trying to start a movement of people who spend some time each day on finding and listening to new music made by humans. If each of us does this, and tries to encourage more people to join, we can stave off the AI slop. We let it happen by creating a system that doesn’t share and support the humans.

This sounds a bit like Herbalife without a good marketing plan. KVR membership isn't a drop in an ocean of global influence. You will, at best, converge on the asymptote of apathy.

At the moment, best human music, or art in general, is better than AI generated stuff. But does it matter enough and to enough many people to sustain efforts to stave off AI stuff? I don't think it will. Herbalife without a good marketing plan indeed.

There is AI art that is generated out of one simple prompt. It will become good enough to satisfy the needs of almost everybody I think. The next tier will be pure human art and the top tier will be art that very skillful, professionally educated and trained people create with (art creating) AI tools.

[ksandvik]

This assumes people want to follow AI agents and find out why these agents or prompt musicians create music. Don't underestimate the power of people wanting to know more about people, not machines.

[ghettosynth]

This assumes people want to follow AI agents and find out why these agents or prompt musicians create music. Don't underestimate the power of people wanting to know more about people, not machines.

Don't underestimate the ease with which industry players can fool the public.



Oh Rob and Fab, tell us more please!!!

[zerocrossing]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

Oblique Strategies Is the opposite of using AI. They’re just random vague phrases designed to get you thinking. Not “think” for you. You can do the same thing by asking Seri for a random number between 1 and the number of pages in a random book that you took out of the library, and then picking the 6th sentence on the page. The less sense it makes, the better.

[jamcat]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

People liked Milli Vanilli in 1989. A lot. They were hugely popular and took the world by storm. They were everywhere. They won a Grammy in 1990. But what was it that fans liked, exactly?

Was it the music, or was it the personas, or was it some magical combination of both?

When it became public that Rob and Fab were just actors lip-syncing to music recorded by a group of middle-aged producers and session musicians, the bottom fell out. Ironically, the people who actually perpetrated the deception got out unscathed and were simply forgotten. Or more accurately, never known to begin with. But the actors who were just doing the job they were hired to do were so utterly personally and publicly destroyed that one of them committed suicide.

The music was instantly dropped. The fans dissipated overnight. If it was really the music that was so great and special, you would think it would have lived on, regardless of the image attached to it. But it was like all popular music: it was disposable. The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

And that is why all of the AI panic we're seeing now is ridiculous and overblown.

[bermudagold]

The experienced and skilled musician would accept AI tools to enhance the technical quality

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

Oblique Strategies Is the opposite of using AI. They’re just random vague phrases designed to get you thinking. Not “think” for you. You can do the same thing by asking Seri for a random number between 1 and the number of pages in a random book that you took out of the library, and then picking the 6th sentence on the page. The less sense it makes, the better.

i agree...ghettosynth is conflating trying to open new or maximize existing pathways to ideation,...with the specific condition of writers block...its fundamentally different...everybody tries to get out of their comfort zone or looks for inspiration to maximize opportunities for creativity...why u think drugs are so prevalent in the arts?...bob marley blazing up a spliff before sitting down to write a song is not a specific musical tool...its not AI or AI lite...the weed doesn't perform the creation...in whole neither in part

i assume his point is "experience and skilled" musicians have used tools ...fair enough but I never asserted they didn't

[bermudagold]

If we let AI into this field, it will quickly flood it with a surplus of artworks and
musical pieces – and dominate the commercial mass market for art and
music. Regardless of what individual psychological intentions people may
have regarding fame, recognition, and wealth, regardless of the skills and
passion human musicians may possess: AI is millions of times faster,
cheaper – and it can also compete in terms of quality.

AI is already in the field.

In terms of music and music tech, DAW's like Suno and Ace Studio are going to wipe out the old guard DAW's. The plugin market is going to shrink a lot too.

When you can hum a melody and type in some lyrics and output a whole composition in minutes that is good enough for many commercial and personal uses, that's going to take over.

i agree this is highly possible...and been a vision for many for a while...i started this thread here in 2023 when they were trying to get the term "GAW" to stick
viewtopic.php?p=8776347&hilit=gaw#p8776347

like I said in the other thread dsp videogaming...most of the new entrants from the pandemic the current market is built on weren't publishing finished songs or performing gigs anyway...plugins in DAWs had just become guitar hero in the PlayStation for a new generation...so they are probably much more likely to abandon the DAW and plugin paradigm for the cradle to grave AI tool paradigm

[ghettosynth]

Those don't need AI anyway. They just grab their instrument or microphone and just nail it, much faster than any prompt jockey could type anything. The same applies to engineers who do the mixing and mastering. Speed is not the only factor, quality should also be considered.

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

Oblique Strategies Is the opposite of using AI. They’re just random vague phrases designed to get you thinking. Not “think” for you. You can do the same thing by asking Seri for a random number between 1 and the number of pages in a random book that you took out of the library, and then picking the 6th sentence on the page. The less sense it makes, the better.

i agree...ghettosynth is conflating trying to open new or maximize existing pathways to ideation,...with the specific condition of writers block...its fundamentally different...everybody tries to get out of their comfort zone or looks for inspiration to maximize opportunities for creativity...why u think drugs are so prevalent in the arts?...bob marley blazing up a spliff before sitting down to write a song is not a specific musical tool...its not AI or AI lite...the weed doesn't perform the creation...in whole neither in part

i assume his point is "experience and skilled" musicians have used tools ...fair enough but I never asserted they didn't

I'm not conflating anything. You can accuse me of sloppy quoting, but, these were your words:

chances are if you have "writers block" a lot...u may have the wrong hobby

I'm going to guess you have no data on how often Bowie and Zimmer get writer's block. The main point here though is that writer's block is a well documented phenomenon across all creative fields. You aren't an authority on how often people get it, what form it takes, how they solve it, which solutions are helpful.

I'm not defending gear hoarding in and of itself, but I think that your notion of who needs a new hobby is fueled by gatekeeping fear.

[bermudagold]

that said...just because "The experienced and skilled musician" don't need it, doesn't mean they wont accept it...AND use it

Right, what a cop out.

David Bowie. He said he used Oblique Strategies during the Berlin period, particularly around the making of “Heroes” and Lodger, to disrupt habitual songwriting patterns.

Talking Heads. Brian Eno brought the cards into sessions for More Songs About Buildings and Food and Remain in Light. David Byrne has acknowledged their use in studio work.

Coldplay. Chris Martin has mentioned using Oblique Strategies in songwriting sessions as a way to break creative blocks.

R.E.M. Peter Buck has referenced the cards in interviews discussing studio experimentation.

Bloc Party. Kele Okereke has spoken about using the deck during writing sessions.

Phoenix. The band has cited Oblique Strategies as a tool during album development.

U2. Brian Eno used the cards while producing The Unforgettable Fire and The Joshua Tree, which effectively means the band worked under their influence.

but oblique strategies are not analogous to "AI Lite" tools nor today's full AI tools in their intervention and contribution level to the actual mechanism of creation in the music

Oblique Strategies Is the opposite of using AI. They’re just random vague phrases designed to get you thinking. Not “think” for you. You can do the same thing by asking Seri for a random number between 1 and the number of pages in a random book that you took out of the library, and then picking the 6th sentence on the page. The less sense it makes, the better.

i agree...ghettosynth is conflating trying to open new or maximize existing pathways to ideation,...with the specific condition of writers block...its fundamentally different...everybody tries to get out of their comfort zone or looks for inspiration to maximize opportunities for creativity...why u think drugs are so prevalent in the arts?...bob marley blazing up a spliff before sitting down to write a song is not a specific musical tool...its not AI or AI lite...the weed doesn't perform the creation...in whole neither in part

i assume his point is "experience and skilled" musicians have used tools ...fair enough but I never asserted they didn't

I'm not conflating anything. You can accuse me of sloppy quoting, but, these were your words:

chances are if you have "writers block" a lot...u may have the wrong hobby

I'm going to guess you have no data on how often Bowie and Zimmer get writer's block. The main point here though is that writer's block is a well documented phenomenon across all creative fields. You aren't an authority on how often people get it, what form it takes, how they solve it, which solutions are helpful.

I'm not defending gear hoarding in and of itself, but I think that your notion of who needs a new hobby is fueled by gatekeeping fear.

i can see how that might have come off condescending, but that wasn't my objective...that's why i used the semantic "may"...and I already caveated the opinion with starting from my own anecdotal experience...which is still objectively true...I haven't seen writers block as something that is highly prevalent in "experienced and skilled musicians"...the rest is antagonistic conflation and projection for effect as usual sadly...I have no fear nor the insecurities you want me to exhibit...and I am definitely not a gatekeeper

we have an exercise with the kids in class for newbies to make a finished song that they like with stock tools and then repeat the exercise with freeware before they make any purchases...that way they know exactly what they NEED to buy,...and more importantly WHY...on a uniquely individual level...saves them from wasting a lot of time and money they dont have...if they cant complete a song that they like with stock tools, the empirical evidence shows that they in fact MAY have the wrong hobby

[ghettosynth]

i can see how that might have come off condescending, but that wasn't my objective...that's why i used the semantic "may"...and I already caveated the opinion with starting from my own anecdotal experience...which is still objectively true...I haven't seen writers block as something that is highly prevalent in "experienced and skilled musicians"

I think that my post contradicts that. You don't really know how often it happens. Moreover, it doesn't matter. People can spend their time doing anything that they want to do, even waste it, even complain about how the industry doesn't cater to their skill level. To even state that "experienced musicians don't get writers block", especially without actual data, which there is a ton of data out there if you look for it, has no value in this conversation other than tribal alignment, it's us vs them.

Really, that appears to be the predominant motivation on KVR with many here hoping that they're in the "us" column despite significant evidence to the contrary.

Here's the real fear. Being good at an instrument doesn't mean that you have the ability to write good songs where good is defined by attracting attention. If you argue that steaming should pay more, then you are implicitly stating that you care about attention to your output. So, the fear is that people who aren't good at instruments might have better song ideas and will attract more attention than a good player can. Up until now, playing an instrument served as some level of gatekeeping, beyond that, arranging (in a very rough sense) and completing tracks in a DAW served as another level of gatekeeping.

The fear is almost certainly valid. An AI song that is funny and of the moment will attract more attention than one that is hand crafted crap but properly "produced." The problem isn't the fear itself, the problem is the idea that you can rationally construct a worldview that refutes the fear based on definitions of gatekeeping attributes.

if they cant complete a song that they like with stock tools, the empirical evidence shows that they in fact MAY have the wrong hobby

No it doesn't. It just means that they aren't ready to complete a song that they like with the stock tools. That is the nature of a hobby, it doesn't have to be justified to anyone, least of all, gatekeepers. I think that what that data shows is that people often take the wrong classes at the wrong time trying to update their skills. What I think that we will see, call this a prediction, is that AI will help people learn where their gaps are in any subject. Producer.ai is a decent first attempt at this.

[zerocrossing]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

People liked Milli Vanilli in 1989. A lot. They were hugely popular and took the world by storm. They were everywhere. They won a Grammy in 1990. But what was it that fans liked, exactly?

Was it the music, or was it the personas, or was it some magical combination of both?

When it became public that Rob and Fab were just actors lip-syncing to music recorded by a group of middle-aged producers and session musicians, the bottom fell out. Ironically, the people who actually perpetrated the deception got out unscathed and were simply forgotten. Or more accurately, never known to begin with. But the actors who were just doing the job they were hired to do were so utterly personally and publicly destroyed that one of them committed suicide.

The music was instantly dropped. The fans dissipated overnight. If it was really the music that was so great and special, you would think it would have lived on, regardless of the image attached to it. But it was like all popular music: it was disposable. The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

And that is why all of the AI panic we're seeing now is ridiculous and overblown.

I've been formulating a theory. I don't know if it's novel or correct, but I think there are people that I'm going to call "charismatics." We've all met at least one. I don't now if this comes about from nature or nurture, but they are somewhat rare. Most major celebrities and polititicians are charismatics. Then, there are supercharismatics. These are the superstars. The Obamas or Clooneys. When you get a supercharismatic with some affinity for music, you end up with a Frank Sinatra or even a Taylor Swift, neither of which are all that musically talented, while so many amazing musicians languish in various levels of disregard. Lucky if they find a gig as a backup singer for Taylor, even though they're superior in every way.

I've been in several bands with mid level charismatics. One was actually a really good guitarist, but turned out to be a sociopath who was stealing his friends' instruments and other stuff when he knew they were away. He actually replaced me for a gig and let me know as I was back stage with my guitar strapped around my neck, waiting to go on. The one that always stands out to me was a woman who was a pretty good singer. She was not traditionally beautiful or a great performer. She could, however, pack a house. The first time it happened, I just figured it was all her friends coming out to support her first show ever, but it happened over and over. It went on for a year. Our music hadn't really changed, and all of the sudden we were a hot ticket. When she left the band, we had managed to accrue exactly no momentum or following. The music hadn't really changed. At one point, we got a new singer who seemed like they'd be better in every way, but we never hit like that again. The band had improved in every measurable metric, but we always got stuck at about the level of filling a small bar on a weekend. I also once dated a girl who would always bring a big crowd to my ambient shows, and if there's a crowd, more will naturally come. As soon as we broke up, the people I thought were my friends disappeared, even though I was the victim and we remained civil. Her friends would have followed her to a harmonica battle. What I was doing was irrelevant.

So... yeah. It's generally always going to be a popularity contest, and I don't think there's really a way of becoming that if you're not naturally adept at it. Maybe I'm wrong. I think people want to be in the group. They want to be at the party. Some people are the nexus of the party. Some are not.

But what I am worried about is how an entire art department at a game studio, including me, gets let go, and the one guy they kept was an art director who got all his art from Midjourney. Literally the least talented person on the team, art wise. The game industry is a bloodbath right now. What happens when this hits Hollywood and all the actors who are trying to work their way into movies by doing extra work are replaced with AI that's composited after the fact? AI won't effect the Clooneys or Swifts, but all the behind the scenes and supporting roles... will those exist anymore?

[bermudagold]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

I've been formulating a theory. I don't know if it's novel or correct, but I think there are people that I'm going to call "charismatics."

all good points and fair questions...lots of similar phenomena going on...the intersection of art and commerce/capitalism is fraught with peril

from the "why is modern music so awful thread" lol

"for discussion two examples from current pop landscape
Dua Lipa...she was introduced to a Warner Music A&R by a trusted "tastemaker" in his personal circle..."she had nothing" yet in endeavors of music...he said he was willing to sign her before hearing any music at all because of her unique wardrobe, look, charisma, and "energy" when she first walked into the room he was in and commanded everyone's attention....so she debuts with ambassador deals signed for versace, yves st laurent, mulger, and puma

sabrina carpenter was another graduate from the disney kids' tv school, mentored by miley cyrus...her current hit "espresso" is apparently stitched from 4 spice loops, something AI could easily do now...it has deals with Alfred coffee, menotti's coffee, and blank street coffee supposedly before song was released...each deal is exclusive for a geographic region...sabrina posted on all socials for fans to post pics of themselves enjoying her signature coffees for all brands...same with her signature coffee ice cream flavor from Van Leeuwen ice cream

is this music as an artistic endeavor,...or an industrial factory designed for commodity marketing of consumer goods?"

[ghettosynth]

Milli Vanilli is the perfect case study for this discussion.

People liked Milli Vanilli in 1989. A lot. They were hugely popular and took the world by storm. They were everywhere. They won a Grammy in 1990. But what was it that fans liked, exactly?

Was it the music, or was it the personas, or was it some magical combination of both?

When it became public that Rob and Fab were just actors lip-syncing to music recorded by a group of middle-aged producers and session musicians, the bottom fell out. Ironically, the people who actually perpetrated the deception got out unscathed and were simply forgotten. Or more accurately, never known to begin with. But the actors who were just doing the job they were hired to do were so utterly personally and publicly destroyed that one of them committed suicide.

The music was instantly dropped. The fans dissipated overnight. If it was really the music that was so great and special, you would think it would have lived on, regardless of the image attached to it. But it was like all popular music: it was disposable. The lesson here is that without the personalities selling the music, it was worthless.

And that is why all of the AI panic we're seeing now is ridiculous and overblown.

Yes, but, there are important points to note here. Mili Vanili was quite successful pre-exposure. The industry will repeat the experiment. Moreover, nearly all artists now openly admit lip syncing, some DJs are caught faking sets, it largely doesn't matter to their audiences. While the industry shut down Milli Vanilli at the time, the music is still very popular.

Here's another example.



TBH, I hate posting this, I hate everything about this track and the story behind it. However, compared to Milli Vanilli, this wasn't exposed until disco was in decline, the impact to his "career" and cultural damage, outside of that for producing disco, was largely unimpacted.

It has had something of a cult resurgence in video games.





Point being, especially since this was all before it became very common to use backing tracks live, including for vocals, is that people don't care as much as they used to. Taylor Swift's fans DGAF.

[Chicken Drummy]

all of the AI panic we're seeing now is ridiculous and overblown.

But it really isn't "ridiculous and overblown", is it? When big record companies are pushing AI artists to the top of the charts right in front of our eyes and using millions of fake fans/followers to boost their visibility and pretending these "artists" are a lot more popular than they actually are, that doesn't give you even a moment's pause?

At this point I think that anyone who refuses to see the writing on the wall -that these companies are blatantly, intentionally pushing AI music and "musicians" over human bands and artists- are either willfully ignorant or completely blind to reality.

It's clear that humans are being pushed aside for LLM-created trash and unfortunately it will continue to occur more and more until every popular track is AI because these record labels can make a lot more money on non-existent AI musicians.

Soon enough every song that makes it onto the charts with be AI-created rubbish; that's where the most money can be made. If that isn't obvious to people at this point, it's simply because they're in denial and/or they aren't paying attention.