If AI replaces musicians, does the entire plugin industry die with them?

[hardyharrharr]

hey, i just noticed you are from the uk
lucky you
big big big big fan here of music that came from there
british invasion, shoegaze, so good

germany had the biggies initially
bach, mozart, beethoven
but then words started to matter
the brits were good at words and stuff
but then isnt bob dylan german?

[hardyharrharr]

hey, is radiohead shoegaze?

[Hipster Bales]

Bob Dylan is actually American, and Radiohead is more rock music than they are shoegaze

[Grizzellda]

So AI replaces the musician and the plugin developer, lol. It can make songs. It can make plugins. It can make more good songs and more good plugins. Conceivably, in short order, human-made songs and plugins could become one percent, or one billionth of a percent, of the total content out there. That seems to be the trajectory of the world. At some point, human-made things may become the tiniest sliver of the content available.

And then... what?

Then humanity will become free. We'll be able to do whatever the hell we like. We won't have jobs unless we want to have jobs, we can spend all day at the beach or seeing the world or whatever else might take our fancy. We'll have created a utopia for ourselves.

Do we love humans more than beauty itself, more than usefulness itself?

It would certainly seem so.

So do we give KVR a music/humans section and a music/AI section? A plugins/human section and a plugins/AI section?

Digital apartheid?

There is some soul/spirit/deep layer in us that needs connection, not merely output.

Speak for yourself. I'd be perfectly content if every last one of you keeled over and died tomorrow. I'd probably have to head out to sea for a few months until the stench of putrifaction died down but after that I'd be free to get on with whatever I felt like. There'd be more than enough of everything to last me the rest of my life and no-one left to piss me off. It would be Nirvana!

But then what if virtual reality eventually seeks to replace that connection too, and does it well enough to trick the brain?

Or what if people grew the f**k up and realised they are not the centre of the universe? Too much to hope for, I fear. Better just to be done with them.

The AI makes the plugins. Then you engage with it like an Urs bot from u-he.

Do you have to engage with Urs when you're using Hive or Zebra? It's that pointless cult of personality and the over-hyped bullshit that puts me off a lot of companies.

The question becomes, “Do we still care what is real?”

Did we ever? People seem perfectly willing to ignore facts in favour of bullshit that makes them feel better about themselves and the world.

But it does not have that deeper consciousness of values, relationship, conscience, or connection to transcendent truth.

Right, because those things have served Humanity so well over the Aeons. They are nothing more than twisted manifestations of our vestigial herd and mating instincts. It is long past time we grew beyond them.

This is why truth matters. Machines may possess intelligence, but they do not possess that higher spiritual capacity by which man is joined to truth, conscience, relationship, God, and the eternal nature of reality.

These are all things that distort reality, that undermine truth. These are human constructs that, in essence, are the root of all evil in the world.

Im talking about the actual law, eg Copyright, Designs and Patents Act 1988.

There is no such law in this country so if we're playing at being pedantic cockheads, I'm more than happy to join in. Unless or until you've thoroughly looked at copyright laws in every country, you can't prove your case. i.e. You lose.

Hans Zimmer and Daft Punk would tell you different.

No, they wouldn't. Hans Zimmer has visuals and dialogue to go with his music. His work reinforces the emotional weight of a scene, it doesn't create it. And Daft Punk is garbage. Pure product.

You don't always need lyrics to write music

But you do to write a song and a song will always resonate more strongly with an audience than a piece of music. You don't see people waving their cigarette lighters over their heads at a performance of Mozart's Requiem, despite the best efforts of 80 musicians, do you?

jeff beck did a cover version of a day in the life, threw away the lyrics

Which is probably why no-one's ever heard it.

Google it.

Why? I've seen the evidence in half-a-dozen different places. You're the guy who needs to see it for himself, not me. But just in case you're too retarded to be able to look things up for yourself, here are a couple of links -

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/ai-generat ... cant-tell/
https://www.reuters.com/legal/litigatio ... 025-11-12/

probably because they wanted to express it using words. and that's OK, but BONES passing it off as not having real emotional impact without lyrics is what pisses me off the most.

Sorry, mate, but that's just the facts of the matter. The piece of music you chose has f**k-all emotional impact compared to the Ai generated piece you chose to use as a comparison. That you can't see that makes me wonder about your sanity, if I'm honest. I mean, FFS, you chose an AI generated ballad, a style that's all about emotional impact, and compared it with your little dance music piece, a style not in any way associated with emotional impact. It's what I'd have done to prove my case if I wanted to be a little bit manipulative. It might have made some sense if you'd given us one of your ballads but you didn't, so it doesn't work, I'm afraid.

Come on BONES..,.tell us how ya really feel!!!

[vurt]

bones doesn't "feel" he calculates and reacts according to the incoming data. "feels" is for hunsns not cyborgs.

[Grizzellda]

Ha ha !!! Good one, but say, are not you...

"Zorg, the Supreme Channeler of The Interstellar Alliance"...

Sounds cybernetic!!!

[BONES]

Come on BONES..,.tell us how ya really feel!!!

When I do that I get banned. This is me being perfectly reasonable.

[Grizzellda]

Come on BONES..,.tell us how ya really feel!!!

When I do that I get banned. This is me being perfectly reasonable.

Hey well, Grizzellda thinks your pretty cool...

[Zeisner]

Yes, play a real song / mix next to an ai song and it is obvious how bad they sound.

Most people don't hear what you hear. Keep that in mind. Think about aliasing. Not many people can hear that either no matter how loud it is. It's similar to the cocktail party effect, it gets filtered.

We had gramophone records, transistor radios, MP3 players, and now smartphone speakers.

None of those continuously changed the timbre of instruments at least once per second. None of those continuously changed the voice of a singer (including the accent and even sex) at least once per second (The wagtunes and especially King of the Sofa stuff are great examples for this). None of them caused instruments to spontaneously wander around the stereo field at least once per second (That "live" track from Let Babylon Burn, especially the drums). None of them added an obnoxious volume boost to vocals... (I could go on but I think that should do it for now)

These artifacts are new, they did not happen in the earliest prototypes. So it looks like both neural complexity and model design are responsible for these artifacts. It's safe to expect them to keep increasing because more hidden layers get added while the model remains the same (and then there's model collapse too). Such huge complex expensive systems and they can't even keep up with freeware synth plugins written by some hobbyists out of boredom. Or the mixing skills of a beginner.

But as AI makes making music more convenient, it's also making the creation of plugins more convenient.

Generative AI makes posing as a musician or programmer more convenient. That's it. But if you want to actually make something you quickly realize how useless it is because of its inconvenient interface and ridiculously high error rate. Any computer system with an accuracy of less than 99,999 % is broken. Statistically, generative AI is on par with coin clipping (!).

Songwriting is not just about lyrics and vocals, it's also about the chord progression, the melodies, when they are happening, etc.

I suggest to listen to a Novakill track, that's Bones "band". One track is enough, if you heard one you heard them all. And then think about how meaningful it is to talk to Bones about expressing feelings and emotions via melodies, chord progressions, tension/release and so on. Even if he wasn't a troll it would be a waste of time.

[Hipster Bales]

I suggest to listen to a Novakill track, that's Bones "band". One track is enough, if you heard one you heard them all. And then think about how meaningful it is to talk to Bones about expressing feelings and emotions via melodies, chord progressions, tension/release and so on. Even if he wasn't a troll it would be a waste of time.

I've listened to one of them. yeah that was a waste of time indeed.

I spend over 2-3 weeks (maybe even longer) doing sound design, composition, mixing and mastering and then there's BONES dismissing my track because it has no lyrics

[Zeisner]

I think Bones is unable to understand how expressing emotions in music works. Take "Rage" for example. There is no rage in it. At all. If I think about rage in music I think about Nine Inch Nail's "Burn" or Mick Gordon's "BFG Division". Rage is based on suffering and that has to be expressed in music too. But Novakill's "Rage" sounds like "I am so cool and edgy and dark and content in what I'm doing", as far away from actual rage as "Moonlight Shadow". And the composition, well... it gives strong "Yeah, whatever" vibes. His bandmate put at best 30 minutes into it, turned around and continued doing what he really wanted to (Assuming he's not as incompetent as Bones). Any beginner with a shareware version of Fruity Loops 3.0 and stock plugins/samples can learn to make this type of industrial EDM in two days. And it's fine if you're a beginner. But for someone who tries to make music for decades - there is no excuse. That's just bad on many levels. But it explains perfectly why Bones loves generative AI so much. If you're incompetent and a poser, then generative AI is the perfect tool for you. At least as long as the companies offer free subscriptions...

[Hipster Bales]

Take Madeon's For You as an example. https://soundcloud.com/madeon/for-you
Even though it has no lyrics, I can understand the story that he is trying to tell us (through chords, tension/release, etc)

I have my own song Hemsworth as another example https://soundcloud.com/hipster-bales/hemsworth

[Zeisner]

What I would do with "Hemsworth": Inject more happiness in one section and raise the melancholy in another. With emotional variety comes musical variety too, especially if both feelings have to connect/overlap. It's similar to starting with suffering and then flipping it into rage which then turns into a new type of suffering. The basics are already there, if you invested more time you could do a lot more.

[Hipster Bales]

true, true. I wanted to not put a lot of stuff into it because my hometown is fairly small, but I totally get what you mean. Thanks for the feedback!

[Zeisner]

You're welcome.