How about instead of observing, you provide examples:
Do some invert and non-invert sums. Also do a few tracks in Tracktion and another sequencer of your choice with levels set to unity, eq disabled, compression off, no effects, and no dithering.
I'll host the files if you find anything interesting.
Until I see something though:"It's not proven fact. It's just something I have observed." translates to at best subjective diffences based on monitoring levels or even the colour of Tracktion's UI, and at worst, idle speculation.
I've done these tests in the past, and I found largely what I expected to find, which is that until you start talking about native effects, sequencers basically dump out what the get in, but I would be very interested to hear your findings.
Apogee dithering versus Tracktion 2
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
Oh, and Montana - if it sounds like I'm jumping down your throat, please remember how quickly some speculative comments can jump from "interesting debate" to "accepted myth" status.
Case in point is the NFR give away. Despite the fact that more than half of the forum was makign the clear case that the NFR version didn't in anyway devalue the full version, it only took a couple of idiots to repeat the line that Mackie was dumping Tracktion, and suddenly the forum was full of freaked out newbies or potential customers claiming that they'd been ripped off.
Case in point is the NFR give away. Despite the fact that more than half of the forum was makign the clear case that the NFR version didn't in anyway devalue the full version, it only took a couple of idiots to repeat the line that Mackie was dumping Tracktion, and suddenly the forum was full of freaked out newbies or potential customers claiming that they'd been ripped off.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
That'll never happen. The "I know what I hear" brigade don't have the technical ability to get that sort of thing together, despite the fact that the onus of proof is theirs.valley wrote:How about instead of observing, you provide examples:
Do some invert and non-invert sums. Also do a few tracks in Tracktion and another sequencer of your choice with levels set to unity, eq disabled, compression off, no effects, and no dithering.
I'll host the files if you find anything interesting.
What's more they're proud of it.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Montana, you haven't answered my question: are you dithering your Tracktion exports?
If not, you are comparing a bit truncated file from Tracktion with a properly dithered file from SX: if you have good ears / monitors of course you will hear a difference.
If you are using dither, and you're still sure you hear a difference, then maybe you are hearing the benefits of the UV22 algo.
The obvious way round that (as Beno seems to have indicated T2's dither options will not change) is either to use a better dither plug in Tracktion, or export 32 bit mixes to be dithered elsewhere.. even in Cubase if you like the UV22 best.
If you want to make a fair comparison of Tracktion and Cubase's mixing engines, then export 32 bit files from both with no dither at all..
If not, you are comparing a bit truncated file from Tracktion with a properly dithered file from SX: if you have good ears / monitors of course you will hear a difference.
If you are using dither, and you're still sure you hear a difference, then maybe you are hearing the benefits of the UV22 algo.
The obvious way round that (as Beno seems to have indicated T2's dither options will not change) is either to use a better dither plug in Tracktion, or export 32 bit mixes to be dithered elsewhere.. even in Cubase if you like the UV22 best.
If you want to make a fair comparison of Tracktion and Cubase's mixing engines, then export 32 bit files from both with no dither at all..
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- KVRAF
- 25032 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
one important point is Tracktion's panning law:
Tracktion adds +6db at hard panning - especially if you have limiters on several tracks you might not notice that you're maybe adding unpleasant distortion if you're panning those tracks...
If you make any use of Tracktion's internal panning faders then disable any limiters on that track to check how much it goes above 0
Tracktion adds +6db at hard panning - especially if you have limiters on several tracks you might not notice that you're maybe adding unpleasant distortion if you're panning those tracks...
If you make any use of Tracktion's internal panning faders then disable any limiters on that track to check how much it goes above 0
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 415 posts since 18 Dec, 2003
remember guys, I stated it was not proven fact.
What I am doing is simply using a few tracks in tracktion without effects. I then mix down and listen to the track as a single wave in Tracktion and in cool edit.
There's no need to panic. I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
What I am doing is simply using a few tracks in tracktion without effects. I then mix down and listen to the track as a single wave in Tracktion and in cool edit.
There's no need to panic. I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
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- KVRAF
- 6519 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from UK
I would. Or any other sequencer at any price including free.Montana wrote:There's no need to panic. I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Prick.Montana wrote:I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
I get perfect mixdowns from Tracktion.
You still haven't answered my question.
I can only conclude the answer is "no I haven't been dithering my Tracktion mixes, because Tracktion doesn't have a nice "UV22" button, and basically I don't understand what it does anyway so I just didn't bother."
I'm right aren't I?
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
Yeah, I might not be the greatest programmer -- I tend to over-engineer classes and objects in ways that I really oughtn't -- but I'd be pretty ashamed, and most likely unemployed, if I couldn't write an algorithm to add 'n' number of data blocks together.nuffink wrote:I would. Or any other sequencer at any price including free.Montana wrote:There's no need to panic. I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 415 posts since 18 Dec, 2003
What's amazing is that many people do agree that certain seq just sound different, wethe rit's the mixdown or the dithering or what have you. It does happen. Im not going to get into a battle here that has been fought many, many times over o nthat net. I don't want to live a cliche. All I can say is I noticed a difference. Many others have said the same thing concerning other seq apps.
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- KVRian
- 666 posts since 5 Jan, 2004
Montana wrote: There's no need to panic. I would not expect an 80$ app to have perfect mixdown anyway.
I´m sorry I listened to you before.
Last edited by klagga on Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:14 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 415 posts since 18 Dec, 2003
ah Klagga. I see you are an expert.
Audio/seq apps over the years have had run ins with mixdown quality. It has been a known problem. But I guess some of the fanboy's here with the Xbox racing games would know better
If one app uses floating point math and one uses integer math, there can be differences in accuracy of the final mixdown, especially if there are any design flaws. But I guess the guys with Xbox's and super ninja racing games would know better.
There could also be clipping at the mix bus that while not producing distortion, can effect overall sound quality. But I guess the "pros" would know about that
Right.
Audio/seq apps over the years have had run ins with mixdown quality. It has been a known problem. But I guess some of the fanboy's here with the Xbox racing games would know better
If one app uses floating point math and one uses integer math, there can be differences in accuracy of the final mixdown, especially if there are any design flaws. But I guess the guys with Xbox's and super ninja racing games would know better.
There could also be clipping at the mix bus that while not producing distortion, can effect overall sound quality. But I guess the "pros" would know about that
Right.
Last edited by Montana on Thu Jan 20, 2005 8:07 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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- KVRAF
- 4644 posts since 28 Nov, 2002 from Chicago
But no-one seems to have ever been able to offer proof beyond what they, or an expert they happened to ask, claimed to be able to hear.
) - lot's of people claim to have seen it, and some of them probably even believe they've seen it, but no one has ever proved that they've seen it, and any research done *always* finds that the likelyhood of there being a family of dinosaurs living in Loch Ness, are pretty remote.
So if you want to avoid the debate. don't make the claims unless you can back them up, because some-one somewhere will read your post and assume that you are part of the "huge numbers of people who know there is a difference", and some of us get tired of having to try and re-educate those people.
It's a bit like the Loch Ness monster (with apolgies to Scots in the tourism business hereI don't want to live a cliche.
) - lot's of people claim to have seen it, and some of them probably even believe they've seen it, but no one has ever proved that they've seen it, and any research done *always* finds that the likelyhood of there being a family of dinosaurs living in Loch Ness, are pretty remote.So if you want to avoid the debate. don't make the claims unless you can back them up, because some-one somewhere will read your post and assume that you are part of the "huge numbers of people who know there is a difference", and some of us get tired of having to try and re-educate those people.
Someone shot the food. Remember: don't shoot food!
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Montana wrote: Still not answering my simple question..
So, you don't know what dither does, or when / how to use it.
I recommend "Mastering Audio" by Bob Katz..
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- KVRist
- Topic Starter
- 415 posts since 18 Dec, 2003
""So if you want to avoid the debate. don't make the claims unless you can back them up, because some-one somewhere will read your post and assume that you are part of the "huge numbers of people who know there is a difference", and some of us get tired of having to try and re-educate those people.""
I can point you to a shitload of people who say there is indeed a difference.
I can point you to a shitload of people who say there is indeed a difference.