Moving from FL Studio -> Bitwig 6 - Any reason to maybe consider Ableton?

[Rastkovic]

Bitwig Studio is looking better and better by each passing day. I may need to seriously give that DAW a chance in future. Their developers seem really forward-thinking by comparison.

The grass is always greener on the other side of the fence.

I'm not fully understand why you guys want to switch. From the things I see, FL Studio seems to be a bit special. It is also the question, how you want to use Bitwig Studio. The modulation ecosystem makes much more sense with Bitwig instruments, like Polymer, Poly Grid, Phase-4, or the Sampler. For example, you can do audiorate modulation with any parameter, but you can't do that with VST parameters. A VST (or CLAP) plugin is an external instrument, the modulations are handled not in the exact same way and most of the time, not with the same resolution. Sometimes, I also had glitches because of "micro" latency inside the VST (when I used more complex, beat sync modulations), never had this issues with Bitwigs on-board instruments.

So, if you mainly want to use plugins like Serum, Vital, or Zebra, that is certainly possible, but you miss a lot of the benefits in my opinion. The difference between Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live and FL Studio is then, probably not that big in my opinion.

The Session View (non-linear sequencing) and the Device Chain (including the Racks) was and is one of the biggest differences between Bitwig/Ableton and FL Studio/other DAWs. Ask yourself, how important is that to you.

[Trancit]

... The difference between Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live and FL Studio is then, probably not that big in my opinion.
...

I don´t know if you really know FL Studio and it surely depends what you want to do respectively what are your needs but for me personally no matter if I use modulations or not, the difference is not just huge but gigantic...
- groups in groups...
- proper freeze
- unloading of instruments from RAM not just CPU
- saving clips with all containing data with browser preview
- (Ableton) saving complete tracks or even groups with all containing data
- much much much much (repeat that 20 times) easier automation
- (Bitwig) ability to create a "Listen" track for plugins not affecting the render
- (Bitwig) plugin sandboxing
- in general: 5 clicks in FLS are 1 click in the other two...
- automatic tempo detection for user samples
- 100 tons of better audio workflow
- 100 tons of better recording workflow
- both have much much better and easier modulations
- M4L and proper extensions with a useable GUI compared to FLS wonky script system where you look at 100 mysterious knobs with wild scales
- Tracks and Groups in the Arranger and Mixer have the same order and are placed correctly when added newly
- moving groups and tracks don´t mess up sidechain routing
- ...
I stop here... this would be a book with 10 successors to name just what these for me personally do better...

If I want to do crazy stuff like audio rate modulation, I am fine to use Bitwig internals or internals of the matching VST/i´s... FLS cannot do better anyway so definetely nothing lost

There is of course a lot what FLS does better than the other two... no question...
But for me these are either the more unimportant stuff or can be replaced with plugins... so not a big loss for me...
I am (other than Caine...) even fine with their PR Editors as I am already quite used to them...

So it heavily depends on your personal preferences...
How goes the saying: There is no perfect DAW... there is just the one that bothers you the least!

[Caine123]

... The difference between Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live and FL Studio is then, probably not that big in my opinion.
...

I don´t know if you really know FL Studio and it surely depends what you want to do respectively what are your needs but for me personally no matter if I use modulations or not, the difference is not just huge but gigantic...
- groups in groups...
- proper freeze
- unloading of instruments from RAM not just CPU
- saving clips with all containing data with browser preview
- (Ableton) saving complete tracks or even groups with all containing data
- much much much much (repeat that 20 times) easier automation
- (Bitwig) ability to create a "Listen" track for plugins not affecting the render
- (Bitwig) plugin sandboxing
- in general: 5 clicks in FLS are 1 click in the other two...
- automatic tempo detection for user samples
- 100 tons of better audio workflow
- 100 tons of better recording workflow
- both have much much better and easier modulations
- M4L and proper extensions with a useable GUI compared to FLS wonky script system where you look at 100 mysterious knobs with wild scales
- Tracks and Groups in the Arranger and Mixer have the same order and are placed correctly when added newly
- moving groups and tracks don´t mess up sidechain routing
- ...
I stop here... this would be a book with 10 successors to name just what these for me personally do better...

If I want to do crazy stuff like audio rate modulation, I am fine to use Bitwig internals or internals of the matching VST/i´s... FLS cannot do better anyway so definetely nothing lost

There is of course a lot what FLS does better than the other two... no question...
But for me these are either the more unimportant stuff or can be replaced with plugins... so not a big loss for me...
I am (other than Caine...) even fine with their PR Editors as I am already quite used to them...

So it heavily depends on your personal preferences...
How goes the saying: There is no perfect DAW... there is just the one that bothers you the least!

again spot on

Trancit can you please elaborate what these are? I googled those but couldnt find what you mean.
- (Bitwig) ability to create a "Listen" track for plugins not affecting the render

and another question do you decide Ableton / Bitwig yet, what are your points against one and the other and how do you like the Piano Roll in Ableton and Bitwig. I think if Bitwig would have a better Piano Roll already with some strum and other midi tools + a better brush and pen i would not rethink with Ableton so far.
also whats annoying and i hope this doesnt disturb me much is there is no autonumbering for duplicate instance names....

[pdxindy]

So, if you mainly want to use plugins like Serum, Vital, or Zebra, that is certainly possible, but you miss a lot of the benefits in my opinion. The difference between Bitwig Studio, Ableton Live and FL Studio is then, probably not that big in my opinion.

I mainly use u-he synths (Zebra 3, Bazille, Diva and ACE). The CLAP versions integrate brilliantly with Bitwig's modulation and Note Expressions.

With the Channel-16 modulator, I can create sound variations per midi channel. Notes on midi ch#3 can have one sound, ch#2 a different sound, etc.

If I want to hold a chord and then have each note pan over time in a specific way, easy and direct to do with the Pan Note Expression. Same with the Gain Expression. I can draw gain curves on any note and since the expressions are polyphonic, it doesn't matter if notes overlap.

If I want to add an extra per voice LFO or two to Diva? Easy with Bitwig's poly modulation. It's like having V2 of Diva.

All of these Bitwig capabilities are unmatched by any other DAW and since this functionality happens to be valuable to me, there is basically zero chance I would even consider switching DAW's.

[Rastkovic]

I mainly use u-he synths (Zebra 3, Bazille, Diva and ACE). The CLAP versions integrate brilliantly with Bitwig's modulation and Note Expressions.

Have you compared the modulation "sound results" of the CLAP plugins with the Bitwig instruments? Especially when using note sync or phase reset, is the smoothness the same, are there no clicks? What is the maximum speed, at which Bitwig LFOs can modulate targets in CLAP plugins? Does voice stacking in Zebra and Hive finally work?

I don't deny that there are some advantages, but per voice modulation is somewhat special. Anyway, I hope the meaning of my post was clear, the Bitwig modulation ecosystem work so well with Bitwig instruments, especially with the Grid. With Zebra and Serum I would prefer the internal plugin modulation possibilities.

[Rastkovic]

I don´t know if you really know FL Studio and it surely depends what you want to do respectively what are your needs but for me personally no matter if I use modulations or not, the difference is not just huge but gigantic...

If the difference is "gigantic", why did you use FL Studio for probably years and why is it now "unusable"? That was my question.

Honestly, I don't understand your listing of features. The most important thing of a DAW to me is the workflow. Second in importance, is how the DAW manufacturer handles bug fixes and drives innovations. No plugin sandboxing was definitely not reason to leave Ableton Live.

[EnGee]

I would go with what's more comfortable to you depending on Workflow, GUI and stability. Features are important if you are using them daily and your workflow is depending on them, but just they are there if you need them, is not a good reason to favour one tool over another.

I, personally, sold Live (suite 12) and kept Bitwig (still on 5). There are shortcomings with Bitwig (for me) but I can tolerate them. Bitwig is more comfortable and pleasant for me to work with. I have my plugins, so I'm not depending on Bitwig's devices.

Do I miss Ableton Live now? Not really!

[pdxindy]

Have you compared the modulation "sound results" of the CLAP plugins with the Bitwig instruments?

Audio rate modulation I would leave to a plugin synths internal modulation.

Much of the time, I want an additional Env/LFO or two. Or to use a specific Env shape (MSEG) that I cannot make with the simple modulators in say Diva. For such use cases, Bitwig's modulators work great.

Then there are a bunch of parameters in Bazille, Ace, Diva and Repro that are not modulatable by the synths own modulators. With Bitwig's Poly Mod, I can modulate those parameters per voice. This opens up sound design possibilities not possible in the synth itself. It's like having an XL version of my favorite synths!

Likewise, I can do stuff with Bitwig modulators like ParSeq-8 and Channel-16 (and others) that aren't possible in the synths themselves. Combine that with the u-he CLAP synths supporting Bitwig's Note Expressions and it makes a fantastic set of tools.

For someone else, this stuff may not matter to them. For me, it is essential and not available in any other DAW. Fortunately for me, Bitwig also happens to have a workflow I find enjoyable and efficient for starting with an idea for a composition and seeing it through to completion.

[Rastkovic]

Have you compared the modulation "sound results" of the CLAP plugins with the Bitwig instruments?

Audio rate modulation I would leave to a plugin synths internal modulation.

Much of the time, I want an additional Env/LFO or two. Or to use a specific Env shape (MSEG) that I cannot make with the simple modulators in say Diva. For such use cases, Bitwig's modulators work great.

Then there are a bunch of parameters in Bazille, Ace, Diva and Repro that are not modulatable by the synths own modulators. With Bitwig's Poly Mod, I can modulate those parameters per voice. This opens up sound design possibilities not possible in the synth itself. It's like having an XL version of my favorite synths!

Likewise, I can do stuff with Bitwig modulators like ParSeq-8 and Channel-16 (and others) that aren't possible in the synths themselves. Combine that with the u-he CLAP synths supporting Bitwig's Note Expressions and it makes a fantastic set of tools.

For someone else, this stuff may not matter to them. For me, it is essential and not available in any other DAW. Fortunately for me, Bitwig also happens to have a workflow I find enjoyable and efficient for starting with an idea for a composition and seeing it through to completion.

I understand, thank you for the insight.

[Trancit]

...
Trancit can you please elaborate what these are? I googled those but couldnt find what you mean.
- (Bitwig) ability to create a "Listen" track for plugins not affecting the render

In Bitwig the rendering happens normally up to the "Master" if you don´t tell it otherwise...
This means if you have plugins you for example need for headphone/room correction they would be included in the final render (what you of course don´t want) if not being disabled before...

A Listen track is signal flow wise located after the Master but before your final Audio output...
Means you can put all of your plugins on which you need for "listening" but don´t want to affect the Master or the audio render of it without having to worry about them when rendering...

Bitwig doesn´t have a dedicated Listen track like Studio One has or like Cubase´s Control Room but you can easily set it up yourself thanks to it´s flexible routing capabilities:

Create an empty audio track where you set the Input to No Input and the Output to "Studio"

Listen 1.jpg

After having done so, you can go into the Output menu of the Master track and in the section "Audio to tracks" there should now be listed the audio track you´ve set to "Studio"

Listen 3.jpg

Here are listed all audio tracks you have unrouted from the Master... i.e. set to direct outputs of your audio interface...
I have here my "Listen" track called logically "Listen"
and my Reference track which of course I don´t want to be affected by the Master effects either...

After having set now your Master output to your new "Listen" track:

Listen 2.jpg

...all audio of your project goes first through the Master bus where you can do all the plugins you would normally do and where you render from but the actual sound you hear runs after the Master first through the Listen track before it reaches your ear...

Here I have setup a tool device I can activate per keyboard shortcut to hear the track in mono, Span for frequency monitoring, psyscope as my oscilloscope, loudness measurement, Adptr Metric A/B for addional referencing apart from my Reference track I have for visual reference as well and Real phones for headphone correction/speaker simulation:

Listen 4.jpg

Many of these could live as well on the Master as they don´t alter the sound, but I feel better if they don´t clutter the Master track and I cannot forget to turn off something like the "Monomaker" or Realphones...
Works perfect without any PDC issues or anything else!
I love with Bitwig the flexibility you´ve got...

and another question do you decide Ableton / Bitwig yet, what are your points against one and the other and how do you like the Piano Roll in Ableton and Bitwig. I think if Bitwig would have a better Piano Roll already with some strum and other midi tools + a better brush and pen i would not rethink with Ableton so far.
also whats annoying and i hope this doesnt disturb me much is there is no autonumbering for duplicate instance names....

Yet yesterday I have bought another upgrade plan for Bitwig and have dropped Ableton for now...
Main reason:
Bitwig can (bit by bit) catch up featurewise ... but Ableton has reached it limits technicalwise!

The Abes have already tried to rewrite the audio engine (and probably more) to get rid of the PDC issues and had to give up without any solution...

Means PDC issues and probably some other stuff (i.e. 4k issues at least on Windows are just solveable per wonky compatibilty hack) are there to stay!
Because of the younger code and less technical ballast Bitwig has over longer time the "brighter" future in my feelings...

At the very end to me both are very close on the pro and the con side...
What one does worse the other does better and otherway round...

I am (luckily) not as upset as you from Bitwig´s PR editor... it got already much better with V6 (was imho much worse before) and probably you are just not aware of many goodies it has got a bit hidden...
I.e. for you Strum problem (where I am with you is actually a must inside of the PR) there is a imho easy solution to let it happen on just a selection of notes...
This must be setup once and must be called up as a preset everytime you use it but it could have been worse...
If you set up a NoteFX Layer with 2 chains:
- chain 1 contains just a Channel Filter with midi channel 2 disabled

Chain 1.jpg

- chain 2 has a channel filter with just channel 2 being active followed by the Strum device

Chain 2.jpg

all you need to do after loading the NoteFX layer is to set every chord you want to strum to Midi channel 2 in the inspector (select the notes you want to be included)

Strum.jpg

...
This workaround is not that bad and would have the advantage that you can modulate/automate the values to make the strumming perhaps even more alive...

What i meant with hidden and besides of the Operators are the "histogramms" hidden behind the little arrow for each parameter:

Hidden.jpg

Especially the chaos function helps me always a lot to get interesting settings...
This is very comparable to the "Randomize" tool in FLS... but here all the parameters are useable as well for every 3rd party MPE enabled plugin and not just native for everything else than Velocity...

Long story short... I will go for now with Bitwig and have a look to where it brings me...
Atm Bitwig just inspires me more than Ableton...
Atm Ableton feels more like a "technical Tool" than an inspiring framework...

Because of not liking the browser of Bitwig for sample preview I already subscribed again to Loopcloud as their app is simply great and helps with many things in terms of sample browsing and previewing with and without playback being stopped in Bitwig...

I hope this helps a bit...

[Trancit]

If the difference is "gigantic", why did you use FL Studio for probably years and why is it now "unusable"? That was my question.

I used FLS for about 20 years...
I fought with it since day one but since I am a silly person being very loyal when I genuinely like something...
Instead of fleeing to something else I settled on hope and "convincing" the IL crew to make it more what I want...
Both didn´t work out for me... FLS improved but not enough for me to make my main problem zones going away...
In meantime the other programms became more and more powerful... releasing in every update more features I was jealous about...

I hope I didn´t used the term "unuseable" for FLS as this would be an error from me...
It is of course "useable" and capable of many great things... it´s just what and how I want to do things terrible cumbersome...
This isn´t FLS´fault... I am coming from a "linear DAW" background and never gelled with patterns and stuff... this was always BS to me and using FLS was actually a mistake...

What finally let me pull the plug in this moment was the implementation of potential spyware by letting Gopher analyse and sending over every of your project detail to their servers... they say it would just happen if you tell it to do... well, ... believe it or not...

This is for me a no-go and I really dislike the way they handled it... the recklessness they handled this quite sensitiv topic and having ignored how people might feel having sit a potential spy directly in front of them...
As I confronted them with my concerns all I got was a surprised shrug with the first reaction: we thought everybody would trust us blindly... and of course tons of fanboys telling they would trust them blindly...that was for me the straw that broke the camel's back...
Not that I would think they would abuse it but for creating it and the way they handled it.

I must say now I am happy that this happened because FL Studio can be (for idiots like me) very addictive and this way I suddenly could let go...

Long story short: it´s not that now and suddenly FLS doesn´t work for me anymore... it never worked well, hopes weren't fulfilled, claimed rewrite has so far been unsuccessful, even after all this time, unhappiness with the direction they are going (AI to support the lazy and uniformed) and (in my view) inappropriate behavior finally “set me free”

Honestly, I don't understand your listing of features. The most important thing of a DAW to me is the workflow. Second in importance, is how the DAW manufacturer handles bug fixes and drives innovations. No plugin sandboxing was definitely not reason to leave Ableton Live.

I don´t know how things like groups in groups, much easier automation, MPE and saving 4 of 5 mouse clicks do not count for you as better workflow... for better organizing projects, faster reaching stuff, a faster and more flexible way of working in general... that´s not belonging to "workflow" for you?

Bug fixes means less crashes/problems, right?
If your crashes/problems are often enough plugin related (which actually can happen easily in Ableton) don´t you think a proper plugin sandboxing can help a lot...
Not that this alone would be a reason to leave a DAW but very nice to have!
Finally and btw: The Bitwig´s are very very good in bug fixing and every bug fix release is free for the last version you qualified for...