SOLVED (at least for my purposes): Omnisphere Multi Out Routing Question - is there no other way?

[Caine123]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

So the FL Studio way again, i thought this is cumbersome but guess not
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/n3bd7h9u ... faxnh&dl=0

Here you see I can play the instrumentchannel and also it is at mixer channel 1 where i can put effects in it and also play the channel and add more effects and hear it instantly!

Bitwig way, I forgot to enable the mouse pointer but you can see what is highlighted
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/5erk25s8 ... 64but&dl=0

Here you can see you got the additional 8 Output BUSSES which would be ok to group and minimize BUT here it comes the annoying this, if i now play in the instrument channel e.g. 4 i see the Audio out on D Output Audio, if i add effects on my instrument channel 4 this doesnt effect the audio of course, so I need to put the effects on the D Output Audio Channel and then click back on my instrument channel to play, so if you play and tweak the same time you CANNOT do it . constant switching of channels.... this cannot be usable, this is pure nonsense....

so yeah it seems in Ableton it is the same case? i checked 3 videos and seems so. I am no dev but i wonder why such a feature is so cumbersome in such a DAW where most routing stuff is more easier.... so yeah i cannot use Omnisphere multiouts in Bitwig. definitely not, this is no efficient and fun way.

[Rastkovic]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

[Caine123]

ok bad news..... there is no way it seems, Support says this is not possible like that, but they forwarded it.

i dunno how helpful support is so far as I never had an interaction yet where there more indepth info, I always got a reply that this will be forwarded :/ so in the end you dunno whats up. I dunno how many infos you get from Ableton support but it feels kinda lacking. good/bad thing, Ableton seems the same bad cumbersome way, so yeah this topic is done for me sadly, I needa check how performance consuming this is using single instances of Omnisphere instead of using these Multi Outs, In FL Studio it is definitely needed as maybe my PC isnt strong enough and/or Bitwig is better in this regard and doesnt rely on that....

[Caine123]

another post from me, I test now the multi out vs single instance performance, give me about 30 minutes i will upload the infos

[Caine123]

ok here is my performance test (on my Gaming Notebook with 16GB RAM not my Studio PC) in FL Studio and Bitwig:
-----------------------------------------------
FL Studio Multi Out Version with 2x Omnisphere + Midi Outs
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/2k8fuh5j ... fjbu5&dl=0

Performance DSP

FL Studio Multi Out pic.jpg

Windows Task Manager

FL Studio Multi Out task manager pic.jpg

-------------------------------------------
FL Studio 16x Omnisphere
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/9kv6abvq ... d560m&dl=0

Performance DSP

FL Studio instances task manager pic.jpg

Windows Task Manager

FL Studio Instances pic.jpg

--------------------------------------------
Bitwig Multi Out Version with 2x Omnisphere + Instrument channels etc.
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ub0t77kv ... gn17e&dl=0

Performance DSP

bitwig multi out pic.jpg

Windows Task Manager

bitwig multi out task manager pic.jpg

---------------------------------------------
Bitwig 16x Omnisphere
https://www.dropbox.com/scl/fi/ryd75kk2 ... 80qp0&dl=0

Performance DSP

bitwig instances pic.jpg

Windows Task Manager

bitwig instances task manager pic.jpg

---------------------------------------------

conclusion:
Strangely in FL Studio with Multi Out which normally saves RAM it stutters a lot and the Performance graph on top is also struggling whereas the singles instances version is playing without problems and having nearly the same RAM readout in Task Manager from Windows but about 5-10% more CPU consumption. which shows in FL Studio single instances seem to be much better somehow, I wonder why not more RAM is in use with singles instances... but the Performance Graph of FL Studio itself shows twice as much RAM usage.

in Bitwig it is also different, the Multi Out version is crackling sometimes but mostly clearly played so yeah better than FL Studio and it shows samey RAM usage in Windows Task manager.
Single Instances however show a much lesser usage in the DSP Graph performance than the multi out version which is great and seems also to be with no or less crackling BUT in windows task maanager like expected normally has a higher RAM usage.

so overall it seems both DAWs for the first test are better? with single instances, whereas I wonder why FL Studio shows the same RAM usage Multi Out vs Single Instances and Bitwig having more RAM usage for Multi Out vs Single Instances in Windows Task Manager.

Of course in both DAWs the loading times are WAAAAAAAAY longer with single instances, you wait about 2 minutes to load a project vs 20 secs or so with the 2 instances, this is logic of course.

[Caine123]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

thanks a lot, check my previous post which shows that more RAM is used with single instances, I am no expert in this, just a user. in FL Studio you see it in the performance graph itself, in windows task manager strangely not.

in Bitwig you clearly see it in the task manager that more RAM is used.

so thats what I had in my memory and it seems to be still the case, HOWEVER i just did a fresh test and it seems strangely even if you save RAM that single instances are more fluid played in both? DAWs. i needa test this.... cause it is strange for my brain to understand, i expected single instances being heavier on performance (CPU) and not played better, in FL Studio

[stamp]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

thanks a lot, check my previous post which shows that more RAM is used with single instances, I am no expert in this, just a user. in FL Studio you see it in the performance graph itself, in windows task manager strangely not.

in Bitwig you clearly see it in the task manager that more RAM is used.

so thats what I had in my memory and it seems to be still the case, HOWEVER i just did a fresh test and it seems strangely even if you save RAM that single instances are more fluid played in both? DAWs. i needa test this.... cause it is strange for my brain to understand, i expected single instances being heavier on performance (CPU) and not played better, in FL Studio

Bitwig uses more ram with multiple instances because of the sandboxing. If you set it to ''by plugin'' you should see less ram consumption.

Ableton is less cumbersome to use in this regard. In Live you can use the external instrument on a midi track pointing notes to omnisphere and receiving audio from it on the same track.

Since Live 12 you can use the cc control device to send CCs from the instrument track. This way you can have automation separated for every single voice of instrument in omnisphere.

[Caine123]

ok seems I might not need this Multi Out anymore in both FL Studio and Bitwig. So I made these tests on my Gaming Notebook which is pretty well, 16 GB RAM, a good AMD CPU etc. I can also play Cyberpunk 2077 on there with high quality etc. I didnt use it much for gaming yet but I test there some music setup e.g. Omnisphere 3 before installing on my main Studio PC.

so my results are:
FL Studio starts to struggle with Multi Out already with 2x instances and also with more than 40x single instances. so with 16 single instances it is better it seems than 2x Instances + 16 Multi Outs, I dunno why at all but thats the result I got.

Bitwig starts to struggle with Multi Out with about 6x instances but still was better performing than FL Studio, and starts to cracke with more than about 55x single instances.
So also here it seems Bitwig is better with single instances than Multi Out.

I dont understand this at all as I expected the total opposite but this would remove the topic for me and also for FL Studio I would continue to use Single Instances instead of the Routing. Again wondering why it performs totally flipped than expected but I'm no pro....

I can imagine that maybe a single instance having to perform 8 channels at once it heavier than 8 single instances. but still, I didnt expect this at all. somehow I learned in the past vice versa, so saving RAM but having a worse performance isnt really the better way

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

thanks a lot, check my previous post which shows that more RAM is used with single instances, I am no expert in this, just a user. in FL Studio you see it in the performance graph itself, in windows task manager strangely not.

in Bitwig you clearly see it in the task manager that more RAM is used.

so thats what I had in my memory and it seems to be still the case, HOWEVER i just did a fresh test and it seems strangely even if you save RAM that single instances are more fluid played in both? DAWs. i needa test this.... cause it is strange for my brain to understand, i expected single instances being heavier on performance (CPU) and not played better, in FL Studio

Bitwig uses more ram with multiple instances because of the sandboxing. If you set it to ''by plugin'' you should see less ram consumption.

Ableton is less cumbersome to use in this regard. In Live you can use the external instrument on a midi track pointing notes to omnisphere and receiving audio from it on the same track.

Since Live 12 you can use the cc control device to send CCs from the instrument track. This way you can have automation separated for every single voice of instrument in omnisphere.

thanks a lot for the info! ok I didnt check this option yet at all. In FL Studio I can also map/automate all parameters with the single Midi Out Channels seperately. good to know it seems to be possible in Ableton 12, I also let Bitwig support know, check my text above if interested, it seems this Multi Out isnt needed anymore for me, I am still unsure but I was shocked in a good way about my findings today....

[Trancit]

...
I dont understand this at all as I expected the total opposite but this would remove the topic for me and also for FL Studio I would continue to use Single Instances instead of the Routing. Again wondering why it performs totally flipped than expected but I'm no pro....

I can imagine that maybe a single instance having to perform 8 channels at once it heavier than 8 single instances. but still, I didnt expect this at all. somehow I learned in the past vice versa, so saving RAM but having a worse performance isnt really the better way
...

Do you understand what Hevy explained to you in Looptalk why this happens?

[Caine123]

...
I dont understand this at all as I expected the total opposite but this would remove the topic for me and also for FL Studio I would continue to use Single Instances instead of the Routing. Again wondering why it performs totally flipped than expected but I'm no pro....

I can imagine that maybe a single instance having to perform 8 channels at once it heavier than 8 single instances. but still, I didnt expect this at all. somehow I learned in the past vice versa, so saving RAM but having a worse performance isnt really the better way
...

Do you understand what Hevy explained to you in Looptalk why this happens?

yes, i think that should be it, i was posting there later. again this blowed my mind yesterday as I was always working with multi out to save RAM and i thought CPU would be also saved (yeah will be) but overall performance not. so i can imagine this is good for people with not much RAM or maybe this is an antique method to work with plugins nowadays. i cannot remember but i think i learned this about 10 years ago and always used since then Omnisphere like that

[Trancit]

yes, i think that should be it, i was posting there later. again this blowed my mind yesterday as I was always working with multi out to save RAM and i thought CPU would be also saved (yeah will be) but overall performance not. so i can imagine this is good for people with not much RAM or maybe this is an antique method to work with plugins nowadays. i cannot remember but i think i learned this about 10 years ago and always used since then Omnisphere like that

[Rastkovic]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

thanks a lot, check my previous post which shows that more RAM is used with single instances, I am no expert in this, just a user. in FL Studio you see it in the performance graph itself, in windows task manager strangely not.

in Bitwig you clearly see it in the task manager that more RAM is used.

so thats what I had in my memory and it seems to be still the case, HOWEVER i just did a fresh test and it seems strangely even if you save RAM that single instances are more fluid played in both? DAWs. i needa test this.... cause it is strange for my brain to understand, i expected single instances being heavier on performance (CPU) and not played better, in FL Studio

But you don't use 16 instances of Omnisphere in your projects? Do you?

I never used Omnisphere, but if you simply want to layer some different sounds, I guess, you could use a single instance of Omnisphere with (for example) two to four different Outputs. That would be a real-world scenario for me.

[Caine123]

hey thanks for all the replies, I will also send support a mail but it seems there is only this real cumbersome way, I wonder why and if this souldnt have been improved in development? i mean... this is really nothing with which anybody can work?
AFAIK using 1 instance and doing multi outs saves RAM? if i got 15 instances of Omnisphere and can split it in 2 instances + 15 Midi Outs/Instrument channels i think this is saving something.

How do you measure that? I nearly use zero sample-based VSTs, so I have no real personal experience. But in theory, it doesn't make sense to me. Both the multitimbral instrument and the single instance have to load the samples into RAM. Where is the difference? I suspect, it depends more on how the DAW handles it.

thanks a lot, check my previous post which shows that more RAM is used with single instances, I am no expert in this, just a user. in FL Studio you see it in the performance graph itself, in windows task manager strangely not.

in Bitwig you clearly see it in the task manager that more RAM is used.

so thats what I had in my memory and it seems to be still the case, HOWEVER i just did a fresh test and it seems strangely even if you save RAM that single instances are more fluid played in both? DAWs. i needa test this.... cause it is strange for my brain to understand, i expected single instances being heavier on performance (CPU) and not played better, in FL Studio

But you don't use 16 instances of Omnisphere in your projects? Do you?

I never used Omnisphere, but if you simply want to layer some different sounds, I guess, you could use a single instance of Omnisphere with (for example) two to four different Outputs. That would be a real-world scenario for me.

I got projects with 15x Omnisphere cause I use it also a lot for sound design, this thing is a monster, sometimes i got 2x piano then another layer for it, then maybe 3-4 pads, a drone, bass 2 times, then effects and other textures. but if i got so many Omnisphere layers then i mostly dont use much additionally, mostly audio samples and TAL Sampler for example, maybe Serum or so to add a quick Lead or sequence. so yeah I use a lot of OOmnisphere sometimes