T2 is too expensive

[IIRs]

I don't want to. I want to export at 32-bit. Tracktion does this. Live 4 doesn't.

I don't use Live so I can't comment on the sound quality, but an export at 24 bit, if properly dithered, should be easily good enough for mastering.

Or, to put it another way, all other things being equal I don't believe there is anyone who could reliably tell a 32 bit export from a dithered 24 bit version..

[IIRs]

Hmm.. I suppose that means we will need to dither down to 32 bit on export for mastering!

I don't think I have a dither plug with a 32 bit setting..

This would presumably be done automatically when you export to render.

Hopefully.. I don't think we get automatic dither when we export at lower bit depths at the moment though.

[jtxx000]

there is a dither switch right now, is there not?

[headquest]

I don't want to. I want to export at 32-bit. Tracktion does this. Live 4 doesn't.

I don't use Live so I can't comment on the sound quality, but an export at 24 bit, if properly dithered, should be easily good enough for mastering.

Or, to put it another way, all other things being equal I don't believe there is anyone who could reliably tell a 32 bit export from a dithered 24 bit version..

I would agree with that in proincipal... BUT Live 4 does seem to have poorer audio quality (to my ears, and many others who have made simplar complaints about "coloouration" and other audio issues in Live 4). I'm not sure whether or not this is due to the fact that audio is being treated at a lower bit-depth, being poorly dithered to that bit-depth on export... or what.

I'm thinking that bit-depth may be one issue within a bigger audio problem with Live 4.

Whatever the answer (and it would be interesting for some science boffins to do the tests ) I agree with the many who say that Live 4 produces the sound quality you want in a live context (which may even be MONO of course, if you are playing in a club), but not the quality needed in a studio context.

[IIRs]

there is a dither switch right now, is there not?

Do you know what it does?
How does it determine the bit depth to use?
Is the dither included with an audio export?
If so, does it set the dither according to the export settings?
Does it use noise-shaping?

Until I get answers to these questions I'm leaving it turned off and sticking the mda dither plug in my master section.

Ihat way I can set it to 24 bit when mixing, disable it to export at 32 bit, and drop it to 16 bit for the final mastered version, and I know its all kosher.

I am a bit of a control freak though..

[headquest]

[I loved T1 NFR at first sight and had a good time working with it. UNTIL I tried using drumpads which mades midi recording crack up in T. Every other note is mute. Something with short duration notes.

This was reported 7 weeks ago to Mackie which said they forwarded information to developers.

Haven't heard from them since. No confirmation "this is recognized as a bug and will be fixed asap". Nothing.

What I'm trying to say is that no product is better than the vendor supplying it.

Both M-Audio and Mackie are vendors I don't trust with any of my money. They are out. It's doesn't matter how good the products are.

Hmmm... well I just followed your link and was interested to see that when you posted on the Mackie forum you got a response from Beno just one hour and three minutes later...

In case you didn't already realise form the content of Beno's reply, or from reading the forum elsewhere, Beno is one of Mackie's engineers, and is the public face of Mackie in providing customer support through the forums.

In his reply, Beno asked if you live in London, implying that if so... well, both he and Tracktion developer Jules Storer are London based.

So I think it's fair to say that the top Mackie Tracktion guys may have been offering you one-on-one personal support to resolve your problem... which is simply fantastic by any standards.

BUT...l you appear not to have replied to Beno's question(s) at all.

Then the next day, Beno replied again asking for further info... and once again you appear not to have responded, at least via the forum.

Perhaps you didn't realise who Beno is?

In any case it seems to me fairly clear that your attack on Mackie, and their support, is frankly quite unjustified. And I hope that if this is new information to you, then you might now withdraw your comments and change your view.

[chico.co.uk]

overpriced? with all those extra features? surely not...

yes overpriced with all those stupid plugins i dont need(nor can use on a mac) and a box and a manual i also dont need, i call it extortion, mackie style

You'll find you can use them on a mac. So you obviously know what you're talking about.

[jens]

I guess most of this bitching about T2's price has to do with the low $ course...

199$ is today 153,51euros.

When I registered Tracktion in juli 2003 1$ was ~1euro.

Tracktion's price was50pounds/80euros/80$.

The upgrade fee will be less that the difference between T1 and T2. So the upgrade fee will be less than 73,51euros. (less than 95.29$).

I assume it will be 50euros (~65$)

- imo doesn't sound too bad.

[pHz]

and equally ...

... $199 is currently about £105 which - even with the crappy amount of extra tax us brits would have to pay - is a pretty reasonable price for a fully-fledged audio / MIDI sequencer ...

... im guessing upgrade from T1 might be around £50-£60 ... cant really complain about that ...

slainte rob

[jens]

... im guessing upgrade from T1 might be around £50-£60 ... cant really complain about that ...

nope - it can't - once again (*sigh*):

Beno clearly stated that the upgrade fee will be less than the difference between T1 (what we paid) and T2

T2 costs ~105pounds

you paid 50pounds

105-50=55

'less than' surely means more than 5pounds so the upgrade fee must be less than 50pounds.

My assumption is 50euros which would be ~35pounds.

[koolkeys]

cyberpink,
If you don't need the plug-ins, you don't have to use them. But to say that they are the reason the price has been increased is unfounded. The price was bound to go up no matter what. As it's been said, T1 was already over priced. Tracktion 2 is finally a correct pricing. Feature-wise, it competes with most other sequencers in all price ranges. It may not have EVERYTHING that apps like Sonar and Cubase have, but then again, Sonar has about 100 features I would never even use. So it's simply a preference. T2 is well worth the asking price, even without the plug-ins. How much do you think it would be without the plugs? $100? No, it would still be the same, I believe, or VERY close to it.

And besides, to complain about plugs being included, what's wrong with that? EVERY major sequencer has plugs included with it. It's a standard thing to do.

So simply, the plugs likely have no effect, or very little on the price. But if T2 isn't worth it to you, or you don't believe it's got enough to warrant your purchase, that's fine. It won't be held against you. There are other good apps that will do what you want. Make music with those. T isn't for everyone, and T2 won't be either. But please don't make unfounded claims when you haven't even tried it yet.

Simply, T2 is at a very good price when you consider the features. Compare it to others at that price, and it blows them away. Compare it to apps that are way more, and you will see, it does compare. Good luck in the decision making process.

Koolkeys

[chriss]

The pricing issue is one of perception. The professionals will simply not look at a $80 program for there needs (unless they are very open minded). I still think retail should be $299 then alot of Sonar users would notice it and once you have really used Tracktion going back to something else is very difficult.

[pHz]

... im guessing upgrade from T1 might be around £50-£60 ... cant really complain about that ...

nope - it can't - once again (*sigh*):
Beno clearly stated that the upgrade fee will be less than the difference between T1 (what we paid) and T2
T2 costs ~105pounds
you paid 50pounds
105-50=55
'less than' surely means more than 5pounds so the upgrade fee must be less than 50pounds.
My assumption is 50euros which would be ~35pounds.

splitting hairs again jens ...

... not keen on the condescending 'sigh' business either ...

... all based on a differing opinion of what 'less than' might mean too ...

slainte rob

[jens]

... not keen on the condescending 'sigh' business either ...

it's more that I think you're not optimistic enough
('you' means most visitors of this forum, even the optimistic ones <- and that's what the sigh was for)

[Lunch Money]

Jens just needs a vacation. He's a good bloke, but is getting so fed up with what he perceives as idiots (NOT you, I'm sure he knows the difference) that he's acting the same way even with the intelligent people that he usually respects.

Jens, I'll buy you a nice beer if I'm ever out that way.

[edit: heh, we posted at the same time! I didn't know he had written that yet. ]

Greg