Begging for improved timestretch

[jens]

Greg: I wasn't 'trying to catch [you] with [your] pants down or something' - not at all - I only want to show how much of an issue the current time-stretching algo has always been. This is in response to e.g. ModuLR and Glurgle who are acting as if Clueless and me are small minority who wants something hardly anyone else cares for...

My question is still:

64bit - who wants this , who needs this - who has got problems with 32bit?

Scalable interface - who asked for this?


I can prove that many many users (you included) complained again and again for about two years now
about the current time-stretching algo and that many many people begged for an improvement over and over again!

There has been thread after thread about time-stretching and many people even started to make jokes about it not only in this forum but on the whole board.
If Clueless and me etc. are whinging now we are just not speaking for a small minority. It's a lie to pretend that.

You can't talk that away and I will continue this quoting just to remind you of how intense these requests have been because you seem to have forgotten.

[clueless]

you went apeshit and singlehandedly turned this into a timestretching jihad.

thread title?

Let's do some quotes shall we?

I wish they'd just put us out of our misery!!!

Sorry, you were all were waiting for me to reply? My bad. There have been no changes to Pitch Shift/Time Stretch for version 2.0. Sorry, we couldn't do everything for this release and there were many things, including new PS and TS algorithms, that didn't make it.
Ben

ahhhhhhhhh SHITE!



future plans Beno?

been waiting nearly 2 friggin years!

Now that's a perfectly acceptable response, you're dissappointed, it sucks, but so it goes.

yep, can;t argue with that

So the chatter continues for another page or two then ModulR inadvertantly sets you off:

What's the point in pushing a product that doesn't even support the hardware you sell? Seems pretty obvious to me..

cos we all have Mackie HDR's...right?

all this "it's no big deal, just stretch in another app. blah blah..."

bollocks! it's a f**king big deal!

"what happens to the audio clips in this 32 track project if I want to change the tempo? oops..."

for f**k's sake! it's been the most conspicuously requested feature apart from 'improved MIDI' virtually from day 1! I don;t want to use Live! I don't even understand what the f**k you're supposed to do with it! I mean..."huh?!" What are the 2 screens for? I'm sure there's a really great reason, but after 15 minutes I really couldn't be arsed finding out, pretty though they both are.

I won't be upgrading until a high-quality timestretch/pitch-shift is integrated. I think Tracktion is "the best thing since sliced bread", but for what I do - other than tracking stuff in - I really can't use it that much, and I'm very disappointed.

wtf? ok, so you're really pissed, and really really really wanted improved timestretch. Sorry, but them's the breaks.

yeah, I mildly rue my 'ferocity'

but not the sentiment

"really pissed" btw? - 2 bottles of wine. let that be a lesson to me!

no, we don;t have to buy it, but we did, some of us bought it a long long time ago

You say that like it entitles you to something more than what you paid for. (which was a license to use a piece of software by the way)

strictly speaking that's true. my point was, we've been with Tracktion a long time, rather than just having popped up yesterday screaming "WAAA!!! I wanna timestwetch NOOOWWWWW!!!". A lot of us bought into it when it was, shall we say, 'full of potential'. We played a part in its development, bug-spotting, testing, suggesting improvements and new features, of which the timestretch issue is, of course, only one. We've been asking politely and constructively for it for such a long time. not even that,really we've been asking to be kept informed about it for such a long time, with what feels like bugger all feedback. meanwhile, we've stuck with Tracktion 'in hope'. and this aspect just IS a big disappointment to some of us.

why can't we dictate what goes into it? who is it for? besides which, we were asked!!!

Because it's not yours. Asking for somebodys suggestions/opinions is not the same as agreeing to follow them.

yeah, i'm familiar with the distinction

re-recording it at the right speed will NOT 'always' sound better. it is not always possible. performances, performers, recording environments, happy accidents, can not always be duplicated at will.

apart from that, you seem to be viewing the facility as a shortcut for dummies. maybe it's actually an incredibly useful creative tool. mention has been made of tracktion's use for soundtrack work. "This section of music would work brilliantly with this scene, if only one wasn't 10 seconds longer than the other...."

Yes you're absolutely right, and nobody was seriously contesting those points. Go you!

er...platinumears springs to mind

here's a good example of 'clueless' quoting:

I don't think anyone here is debating the value of a good timestretch or beat slicing.

are you kidding?!

I'm sure Mackie wants a good timestretch too...

great. so where is it?

It's just annoying, when you here people complaining that it's not part of T2.

it's pretty annoying from this end too

If you have a bit of patience, it'll probably be addressed in an update.

great

when?

if they integrated a timestretch but it took another 6 months to nail an really good algo, many would be bitching endlessly... that's why this is all annoying as shit.

LICENSE ONE FOR f**k'S SAKE! and not as many people would be bitching endlessly if they knew they only had a 6 month wait.

it's being f**king SELFISH! because as your dire need is addressed, it's snuffs someone elses dire need..

sorry, I didn't realise

unless you are willing to wait longer which many of you have clearly exhibited the LACK of patience for.... how about STFU!

lack of patience? 2 years??!!

I was particularly chafed by the way you badgered ModulR, one of the most helpful and dedicated T users and forum members, with questions he couldn't possibly answer. But don't get all pissy, I wouldn't dare question your maturity!

I was particularly chafed about being called f**king selfish, being told to shut the f**k up, and being accused of "bitching endlessly" - ok, so I inferred that was addressed at me That wasn't particularly 'helpful' either.

the only questions he couldn't possibly answer weren't directed at him specifically ("where is it?", "when?"). perhaps I should have written "I'd like to know when". I assumed it was obvious enough and that most people would read it as a reiteration of my previous questions to Beno rather than an attempt to prod the info out of ModuLR.

the point is, Mod, Mackie may have a stake in T2, but we are its consumers.

No you're not, you've stated numerous times you won't be upgrading.

huh? I bought Tracktion and I use it

i stated that I probably won't be upgrading until this feature materialises, not that I would never be upgrading, or [:yikes:] moving to another platform. I'll gladly pay for it when that day comes, but right now i just can't justify the expense.

You seem to think that buying a Tracktion license entitles you to have a say in it's development. This isn't true, it never has been.

the users having a say in its development has been invited, encouraged, and I daresay highly valued.

i just think we've been misled about something...

bollocks.

ok, not the wisest choice of words. but i do think it was a tad shoddy to leave us in the dark about it for so long, to endlessly and enthusiastically speculate about it, whilst we could just have been told (months ago?) "sorry guys, not this time" or "sorry guys, not until 20--". We did ask. Again and again. Answer came there none. Why not?

I appreciate I am not The Be All And End All Of Tracktion Because I Am More Important Than ANYONE! And I understand not everything can be had at once. But I was disappointed, and I said so, and I wasn't the only one. So jump down my throat for being disappointed.

and i never said you were an abrasive asshole

Now, please do go ahead and have the last word.

[jens]

Jules, can you borrow Mackie's credit card and license time-stretching/pitch-shifting technology? Maybe from someone like Prosoniq (random suggestion).

Then, add a nifty right-click(oops, forgot about Macs)-on-audio-clip to bring up basic editing features like amplitude peak detection...

We all love Tracktion, but I'd love it more if the stretch/shift quality was as high as the rest of the app, and I could do peak detection/slicing within Tracktion. I'm dying to ditch ACID and Wavesurgeon.

I'd happily pay an extra £50 for that!

I second this.

slowcoaches ... i asked the same thing about 3 weeks ago

(ers from codeaudio has a VERY cool timestretching algorhythm too)

jules ignored me

slainte rob

I searched the web for a good time stretching algo
for licensing and found a pretty decent one

http://www.zplane.de/showPage.php?SPRAC ... products11


they are not as famous as Prosonic so I guess their
licenses are cheaper... you can download small test
programs for listening to the algorithms -
I find them pretty good...

They ask for sending them specific inquiries
about the licencing fee

Please Jules, send them an e-mail - maybe it's
not too expensive and we would all gladly pay some
extra-pennies for it

22nd of november 2003

yes - interesting idea, and I was planning on looking into something like this anyway. Thanks for the link, too, jens - the zplane algorithm sounds interesting.

25th of november 2003

[clueless]

sorry, but it is kind of funny

[jens]

I'd rather say it is kind of sad...

[clueless]

I'd rather say it is kind of sad...

as well

[rockstar_not]

jens,

You rock!!! All of these people that say that they didn't care about time stretch - when they did.

I didn't see anyone asking for a scalable interface, 64 bit audio, control surface integration, new skins or color schemes, etc. etc. etc.

Look, this wouldn't be an issue if T1 hadn't advertised time/pitch stretching as a feature in the first place.

It's like buying a car that advertises it gets great gas mileage, only to find out that it doesn't (most people that buy hybrids in the US are finding this out the hard way).

Yeah, I stretch my loops in ACID, but T1's adverts said you could do it direct in T - well that was false advertising in a way. I don't know of any other host that claims time stretch that does a crappier job that T. Name one, please.

What you haven't seen here is the posts from people who walked away from T because of how bad the algo was and unfortunately still is. They don't hang out here anymore.

By the way, Beno and Jules tend to post a little more often on the official forum so it seems. I put up a 'revolution' thread on there. Join in if you want T2.1 to have real time stretch.

With what it looks like Mackie are shooting for, I wouldn't be surprised to see T3 go for $400; T4 to go for $1k, so that the people who might actually have gear that can take advantage of 64 bit and control surfaces, don't feel like they are going downmarket to buy such an inexpensive app.

I will be checking out these other apps listed earlier in the thread. If any of them don't require me to make file transfers in/out of T (I guess that's all I really care about) to have tempo locked time stretch, then I might sign up.

-Scott

[ModuLR]

This is in response to e.g. ModuLR and Glurgle who are acting as if Clueless and me are small minority who wants something hardly anyone else cares for...

you are reading something I never implied once. I have not once said that a timestretch isn't important. I have not once said that people are not waiting for a timestretch. If you take a look, you'll see that I said "I'd love to have high quality timestretch." You'll see, that gist of what I was saying has been nothing more than...

(A) you won't get all of the features you desire, in a single update....

(B) people are waiting for other features which are very close in priority (automation clips was used as an example... to which you even agreed jens) and guess what? those aren't here yet either... but we don't endlessly bitch at about it. At a ceertain point, you acknowledge that your point has been made and move on.

(C) and from that, it's very easy to deduce that they've done the best they can... and for the time being this is what you are going to get.

Now... go back thru this thread and please prove me wrong.

Also, singling out features like "scalable interface" and comparing that to coding a high quality timestretch is apples and oranges. Creating a scalable interface is already part of the juce code. Writting a high quality timestretch algo is a DSP nightmare. It just doesn't carry the same weight. You all assume that it's jules interest to even license one... last I recall, jules appears to be a pretty bright coder.

Clueless.. I mentioned this a long time ago... that the endless speculation would haunt the users here! and it has... You can blame Mackie all you want for leaving us in the dark... but in the end... the speculation and fatasies are coming from the users, not Mackie. If the folks here pumped T2 into this mythical super sequencer... it's totally your own fault!

The only thing I ever held jules to with regards to T2 was an improved midi editor. Why? becuase it was the ONLY thing that he openly said they he was working on. Everything else around here as been speculation, which has turned around to bite folks in the ass. You all need to get a bit angry with yourselves for letting your minds get the best of you.

and just to clearify since this seems to easily go over people's heads... it's not that people don't care about the timestretch.. it's more so that they can accept that it's not going to be in the initial release of T2. BTW, rockstar_not... quotes are very easy to take out of context of the original conversation.

and just to make it ULTRA clear.. read the quote from jules in jens post.

yes - interesting idea, and I was planning on looking into something like this anyway. Thanks for the link, too, jens - the zplane algorithm sounds interesting.

interesting idea... sounds interesting... there is NO PROMISE made! Read it word for word.. and stop implying things that ARE NOT there!

[jens]

Rex file support.....on the list?

I did a search to see if this has been covered and I saw lots of people asking but I never saw jules mention if it was on the list.

I realize you are very busy Jules but is there a possibilty of this ever being implemented?

26th of october 2003

It'd be an interesting thing to do if it's possible, but I've not actually researched it yet. I'd definately like to add more time-warping possibilties to wave clips, so I'll look into it as part of that..

27th of october 2003

[ModuLR]

and what does that tell you? it tells you that jules in looking into enhancing the timestretching, and would consider rex as a part of that. It doesn't says he's begun that process or anything along those lines. It makes no promise of it being included in the initial T2 release. Stop trying to imply things which really do not exist. As a matter of fact, you should see that obviously the timestretch is on jules radar.. good.

[clueless]

Clueless.. I mentioned this a long time ago... that the endless speculation would haunt the users here! and it has... You can blame Mackie all you want for leaving us in the dark... but in the end... the speculation and fatasies are coming from the users, not Mackie. If the folks here pumped T2 into this mythical super sequencer... it's totally your own fault!

Everything else around here as been speculation, which has turned around to bite folks in the ass. You all need to get a bit angry with yourselves for letting your minds get the best of you.

that's one way of looking at it. another way is that speculation is what's left when you subtract dev feedback from a user forum, i.e. when questions go unanswered again and again and again.

sorry if I was a bit spiky with you Mod.

[Lunch Money]

MoluLR's already said what I was going to say--

That you've missed the point and/or taken quotes out of context, Jens.

I already stated on... page 8? as a reminder for what I stated on page 2, that I'm all FOR improved timestretching. Don't know why that hasn't sunk in yet.

That's not the point at all, but I don't see any need to rephrase what ModuLR already said quite clearly.



Greg

[jens]

b.t.w.: if Jules or Mackie would have really digged into it for more than two minutes they would have found the soundtouch library - it's free (it's published under the LGPL so it's possible to include it in a commercial application) and it has a good quality (everyone of you can check the quality by downloading Xtal(or listen to the examples on the soundtouch-site)
- it wouldn't cost a dime, is easy to implement (coded in C++) and would solve the problem... - but no, nothing!

[jens]

and what does that tell you? it tells you that jules in looking into enhancing the timestretching, and would consider rex as a part of that. It doesn't says he's begun that process or anything along those lines. It makes no promise of it being included in the initial T2 release. Stop trying to imply things which really do not exist. As a matter of fact, you should see that obviously the timestretch is on jules radar.. good.

bloody hell, that was 15 months ago...

[ModuLR]

you are still assuming it's in their interest to license a timestretch, as opposed to coding their own. Do you think if Live licensed that timestretch.. it would be nearly as robust as it is now? especially relying on third party libraries?

btw jens and clueless... this is nothing personal