While I enjoy the aforementioned music styles, I play more folk/acoustic rock type stuff.
I've been moaning about T's crap timestretch algo because I've got a load of loop CDs of real drummers playing expensive kits, recorded with much better fidelity than I can in my 6.5' ceiling 12'x12' room with one mic.
Several people have said to us, shut up and just use a beat slicer.
OK, I'll give it a try.
A question first:
What happens on sounds like ride cymbals that cross over beats or have a long release time? Do you end up with a gap if you time stretch to a lower tempo? It seems like that's what would happen - which is unacceptable - hence the love of timestretching direct on the waveform.
-Scott
Beatslicing for non-electronica/dance/hip hop/etc.
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- KVRAF
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Basically yes. There are tricks to avoid this, but I think you usually need some manual input to get it perfect. I can't be specific as I don't own any of the beatslicers.. the only loops I use are ones I recorded myself, as it just doesn't feel like my work otherwise.rockstar_not wrote:A question first:
What happens on sounds like ride cymbals that cross over beats or have a long release time? Do you end up with a gap if you time stretch to a lower tempo? It seems like that's what would happen - which is unacceptable - hence the love of timestretching direct on the waveform
However, when I do use a drum loop from my library I tend to slice it manually on Tracktion's timeline. I f you set Tracktion's tempo to match the loop (T will do this automatically if the loop is trimmed perfectly), snip the clip into as many slices as you need, then switch the tempo to the speed you want.
The loop will still play in time (if you sliced it in the right places) but with the gaps you were worried about. If you are careful, you may be able to fill those gaps by duplicating the decay part of the previous slice and using cross-fade. It may not be possible to make the result completely natural-sounding, but doing it manually means you can ensure that the artifacts are in time, and they may add a nice extra rhythm..
This isn't as much hassle as it sounds.. certainly not much more than manually adjusting slice points in Recycle for example.
If you get frustrated at any point, remind yourself that the people who invented beatslicing used to chop up the loop from the front panel of a S3000, and then manually recreate the groove by lining up MIDI notes to trigger the slices!
They would have killed for Tracktion and its "/" tool.. 
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Just to add, if you get this right your drum loops will retain much more of their original quality than if you stretched them, even with the best time-stretch in the world.. 
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
it seems to me that you're mixing up time-stretching and beat-slicing... 
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Who is?jens wrote:it seems to me that you're mixing up time-stretching and beat-slicing...
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
actually both of you, or maybe not - I can't tell for sure...
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
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- KVRian
- 679 posts since 6 Aug, 2004 from Cyberspace
Youd need a beat slicer that has some sampler qualites. The beat slicer in Ext for example is a sampler. VSampler is another. If you set the velocity to something like volume and amp envlopes you can get alot of variation in sounds. Dicer has alot of features for this too.
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It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed,
The hands acquire shaking, the shaking becomes a warning,
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
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- KVRAF
- 25036 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
maybeplatinumears wrote:I think the only person who's mixed up is you.
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
Or you can adjust AD envelopes for each slice (clip fade-in/out) drop vst effects onto individual slices, drag slices to new tracks.. even line up MIDI notes on another track to trigger other stuff with the same groove.lowkey wrote:Youd need a beat slicer that has some sampler qualites. The beat slicer in Ext for example is a sampler. VSampler is another. If you set the velocity to something like volume and amp envlopes you can get alot of variation in sounds. Dicer has alot of features for this too.
Try it. Tracktion is already a vary capable beatslicing tool as it stands..
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- KVRAF
- 9096 posts since 5 Feb, 2004
It seems like a lot of work for simple beat slicing, but I'll give it a try. Sounds like a good time to me.platinumears wrote:Or you can adjust AD envelopes for each slice (clip fade-in/out) drop vst effects onto individual slices, drag slices to new tracks.. even line up MIDI notes on another track to trigger other stuff with the same groove.lowkey wrote:Youd need a beat slicer that has some sampler qualites. The beat slicer in Ext for example is a sampler. VSampler is another. If you set the velocity to something like volume and amp envlopes you can get alot of variation in sounds. Dicer has alot of features for this too.
Try it. Tracktion is already a vary capable beatslicing tool as it stands..
If you have requests for Korg VST features or changes, they are listening at https://support.korguser.net/hc/en-us/requests/new
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- KVRAF
- 6740 posts since 25 Mar, 2002 from sheffield, england
In my experience (which isn't the greatest when it comes to loops granted) if a loops transients are sufficiently well defined to be automatically sliced by something like Recycle, they are usually quite easily visible, and slicing it yourself is a pretty simple job (especially with Tracktions ability to slip edit your slices if you don't get it quite right).braj wrote:It seems like a lot of work for simple beat slicing, but I'll give it a try. Sounds like a good time to me.
If the transients are too buried too be easily seen, then Recycle (or whatever) will probably need some help choosing the slice points. Maybe its just because I've never got past demo versions, but no beatslicer I've ever tried has had manual editing options as enjoyable to use as Tracktions..
Like I said before, try doing it with a hardware sampler if you think that's a hassle!
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
Awright,
I just printed this thread off to give it a whirl. Will post results with some of my loops that I've had to stretch in ACID.
Jens, I realize these are two entirely different things, timestretching and beatslicing and re-setting tempo. However, to me, the end result of needing to play drum loops at a different speed is what I want.
-Scott
I just printed this thread off to give it a whirl. Will post results with some of my loops that I've had to stretch in ACID.
Jens, I realize these are two entirely different things, timestretching and beatslicing and re-setting tempo. However, to me, the end result of needing to play drum loops at a different speed is what I want.
-Scott
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- KVRian
- 649 posts since 18 Dec, 2004
Scott,
If you have time, can you write down the steps you took and the tools used to do the beat slicing. I'm very interested in this but I have no idea how or where to start. The suggestions given in this thread are way above my head.
If you have time, can you write down the steps you took and the tools used to do the beat slicing. I'm very interested in this but I have no idea how or where to start. The suggestions given in this thread are way above my head.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 4908 posts since 10 Aug, 2004 from Colorado Springs
OK,
This was pretty easy to do on a simple loop that didn't have too much time overlap of individual notes. It actually works very well. I'm sorry I didn't try it sooner.
I'm going to have a try with more complex loops later.
chardin, re-read platinumears first post. It's actually much simpler than it looks or sounds.
1. Import a loop.
2. Change T's tempo to match the loop's length in bars (T will tell you how long a loop is in seconds - do the Beats per Minute conversion from there with a simple calculator - enter in this for the tempo in T and it should match up with the length of the loop at a bar marker.
3. Blow up the loop so that you can see the detailed waveform and when major transients occur. Put the cursor there at the start of the transient.
4. push the / key to split the clip at that location.
5. proceed to the next transient and repeat step 4
6. repeat 4&5 until the whole loop is chopped up into individual beats.
7. Change T's tempo to the tempo you actually want.
8. Grab all loops and copy for number of bars that you want it copied.
Done.
I haven't tried platinumear's further suggestions. This is enough for now. It works pretty nicely, actually. Enough for me to quit my major gripe session about no timestretch in T2 - that still would be faster and more useful (for things besides simple drum patterns).
-Scott
This was pretty easy to do on a simple loop that didn't have too much time overlap of individual notes. It actually works very well. I'm sorry I didn't try it sooner.
I'm going to have a try with more complex loops later.
chardin, re-read platinumears first post. It's actually much simpler than it looks or sounds.
1. Import a loop.
2. Change T's tempo to match the loop's length in bars (T will tell you how long a loop is in seconds - do the Beats per Minute conversion from there with a simple calculator - enter in this for the tempo in T and it should match up with the length of the loop at a bar marker.
3. Blow up the loop so that you can see the detailed waveform and when major transients occur. Put the cursor there at the start of the transient.
4. push the / key to split the clip at that location.
5. proceed to the next transient and repeat step 4
6. repeat 4&5 until the whole loop is chopped up into individual beats.
7. Change T's tempo to the tempo you actually want.
8. Grab all loops and copy for number of bars that you want it copied.
Done.
I haven't tried platinumear's further suggestions. This is enough for now. It works pretty nicely, actually. Enough for me to quit my major gripe session about no timestretch in T2 - that still would be faster and more useful (for things besides simple drum patterns).
-Scott