ABLETON LIVE 4.1 upgrade , Not happy...

[quincy]

That is the thing that many fail to realize about Reason..it's like a rock.

The man's got a point.

Reason is the only host i can think of that doesn't IMMEDIATELY result in a a load of posts about bugs and CPU when a new verion is released.

Reason may not be everyone's cup of tea, but its stability speaks for itself.

"Hello, i'm really stable" it says.

I don't like the voices, i wish they'd go away.

[ObsoleteAcc99]

[DELETED]

[John Vulich]

Firstly, Reason has taken about 18 months going from version 2.5 to version 3.0 not two years. Exageration doesn't help your argument.

Ok, so it took one and a half years... I don't think I exagerated by that much. Anyway, IMO that's still an awful long time for such an update.

Secondly, a number of us who have actually played with Reason 3.0 beta responded to your point stating that Reason 3 is a superb upgrade. On paper it may not look impressive, but trust me when I say it is MUCH more than the sum of its parts

I've played with it too and to be honest I really wasn't that impressed with it, for my needs at least. WMMV.

Next, to my main point, which is:

It isn't how frequent upgrades come out, but how good they are...

I don't buy a new keyboard every year. Nor do I buy a new microphone every year, a new house each year, or a new car. However, when I DO buy something new, I expect it to work properly.

So look at Reason, indeed. Version 3.0 was on the launch pad some days ago, but the beta crowd found a few more bugs to squish, so work goes on. Reason 3 will not be released until it works perfectly, or as damn near as the Props can get it based on the feedback they receive. That is entirely fair and proper way for a company to behave when they are planning to launch a major product or upgrade.

By comparisson, Ableton only scratched the surface of the many many bugs reported via their swift public beta. They stuck to their original release schedule in spite of all the problems that were becoming apparent. Hence a further 5 upgrades since version 4.0.1

I would rather Ableton had taken 18 months, like the Props, but brought out a product that works properly.

The result is that there are now a massive 10535 posts in 2636 seperate threads in the "Bugs and Problems" section of the Ableton forum, a hefty proportion of which are post Live 4.

In my view that represents an extraordinary failure.

I will agree that Reason is perhaps the most stable piece of software that I own. Either way I like the program a lot. I just wish they could pick up the pace a bit in the development department. I think that its quite possible for them to do so without losing their high level of quality. I would venture a guess that their sluggish development schedule has more to do with management and funding than anything else. Also, if they remain stuborn and refuse to add much desired features, such as audio recording, I think they will start to lose their market share. Which will be a shame for all of us. So there are other factors at work here other than simple, impatient, gear-lust.

As for bugs in Ableton, I haven't run into very many problems at all. I'm on a PC so my guess is that those that are experiencing problems are most likely... Mac users . What few problems I have encountered are a fair trade, IMO, for the expanded creative palette that I have to work with. My music tends towards the experimental so new and unique features are very valuable to me. Maybe that's why quicker development is a more important criteria for me then having absolute stability. If I played live and had more mainstream needs then perhaps I would have a different point of view.

[stale bread]

"no audio editing"



control+E
control+J
clipview properties window-down to sample level edit, drop in arranger, cut up how you like, truncate with control+j, discard unwanted audio, then arrange how you like select desired audio and control+j again to merge into one sample, apply clip envelopes to clip slices to create something that you cannot create in Reason. read the manual.

[headquest]

"no audio editing"

control+E
control+J
clipview properties window-down to sample level edit, drop in arranger, cut up how you like, truncate with control+j, discard unwanted audio, then arrange how you like select desired audio and control+j again to merge into one sample, apply clip envelopes to clip slices to create something that you cannot create in Reason. read the manual.

Well according to the manual, the only index entry under sample editing refers you to the method for designating your external audio editor...

Aside from the simple cutting and pasting you mention, I don't see how you can edit at audio sample level (e.g. to remove clicks in the recording that are due to Live's dodgy level meters) without going to an external wave editor. Similarly you can't edit audio in Reason. My point was that neither application is a complete solution for audio and midi recording. Which is why most of us enjoy the benefits of using more than one piece of software.

I think you missed the point about the Reason comparisson though. JohnVulich and I were not primarily debating which program offered more features (which would be a pointless waste of time) but rather we were discussing their developers attitude towards releasing updates.

John feels that 18 months between Reason 2.5 and 3.0 is too long. I feel that a year between Live 3 and Live 4 was too short (i.e. because they should have taken longer to get it right instead of releasing a program with so many problems in it).

John and I are probably both right - or at least we both have legitimate points

One final note on that is that Ableton had (I believe) a larger team working on their update than the Props did (although they have recently expanded their team).

Going back to the Robert H quote I posted earlier in the thread, he made it clear that making money for the Ableton business is taking priority over sorting our user's issues... perhaps Ableton have actually taken on TOO many staff in order to maintain their rapid development pace? Fewer staff taking longer but getting it right (i.e. the Prop's method) works for me

[gmstudio]

All I know is that the Operator and Reason 3 upgrade are both about the same price, and without hesitation the Propellerheads are going to be the ones to get my money.


headquest, you're making some exellent points in this thread. I agree with everything you're saying. And I'm a huge fan of both Ableton and the Props, but this time around I think Ableton's starting to show a side of themselves I wish I didn't have to see.

[Cosmic Bandito]

With something like Reason, your buying their reputation for Stability and low CPU usage. That's not news to anyone - It's their core philosopy. It also makes them somewhat risk-averse.

With Ableton, their core Philosophy is making audio software more ergonomic, intuitive and practical. Stability is slightly a notch or two down the food chain but still reliable.

Looking at abletons forum, they have have alot of young bratty users just making a mess over there. I do think some issues are valid like the levels thing headquest mentioned, but overall I have noticed nothing to complaign about. No CPU or stability issues with my 1.6mhz (a dinosaur) and I find more accurate midi (as in I record a midi part and it's accurately recorded) than both Cubase and Sonar (and in sonar's case dropout galore). Sure there are things to nit-pick about, but I just really dig their whole philosopy.

[DHR53]

Hmmm... I can effectively use Logic, Live, and Reason to create music... currently, the only thing I can't do with Reason is vocals... but I actually LIKE the idea of playing audio files from a sampler... because it gives me more flexibility, with pitch and release... Logic has a lot of stuff I don't need, Live takes some rethinking of your strategy, but Reason ...just works! If you can do what you need to with it... then there are no "technical slowdowns", which for me, means I work much faster... And most importantly, due to it's efficiency... I can realize whatever I want to hear, with as many instruments and FX It takes... And THAT is always the case for Reason...

P.S. if you think your VSTs are not replaceable, wait till you hear some of the combinator patches

[stale bread]

Aside from the simple cutting and pasting you mention, I don't see how you can edit at audio sample level (e.g. to remove clicks in the recording that are due to Live's dodgy level meters) without going to an external wave editor. Similarly you can't edit audio in Reason. My point was that neither application is a complete solution for audio and midi recording. Which is why most of us enjoy the benefits of using more than one piece of software.

I understand where you're coming from we'd all like the apps we use to be better, i'm lucky in that I don't have any meter problems, or stability problems with Live and I'd be pissed if I did.

anyway just zoom in on the clip you want to edit the click out of in the clip properties window, the same place you edit warp markers, you can zoom in to sample level, find your click then right to the left of that box select the volume clip envelope and nudge
it. very fast and easy as pie

[kevvvvv]

I installed Live 4 on my previous 2.4 P4 machine, but it took 4 minutes to load, and was a slowcoach.

In response, Ableton told me I needed a better PC, and maybe I should have got a Mac anyway, as Live's history is really as a Mac product.

I now have an uber-PC (800fps, 2gb ram, sata, etc) but still haven't got around to Live yet as Cubase now has SX3.

Now I've got this thread to cheer me up about Live.

So my question is:

Does the panel think Live is really a Mac product and should stay that way?

[ew]

Hell no, Kev; it works fine on Windows...
I've never understood all the CPU issues people have
with Live (or the slow load times). Sure, the first load (and first plugin folder scan) is slow. It does take a little time to load- it's still under a minute on my machine though (an old 933 PIII). And maybe a lot of the reason I don't see the CPU issues is that I'm used to planning ahead and working around my old and slow machine.
ReWired into Sonar, it's one of the greatest things since sliced bread. And for live use, there's nothing that comes close in ease of use
ew

[dgkenney]

Does the panel think Live is really a Mac product and should stay that way?

I don't know what the panel thinks. Hell, I don't even know who the panel is..

I do know that I use Live on a P4 2.8 and it works just fine. I also use Cubase SX 3.01 and I think Live is perfect compliment. I usually start out in Live noodling some ideas and when I have something I like I "control J" some clips and move them into Cubase for the full treatment. I prefer Cubase for mixing and vocal work.

I love Live and think it has really greased my creativity by giving me a new way to look at improvisation and composing.

At the same time I also think that OPERATOR was a mis-step as far as future development goes. But hey, I don't have to use it. As someone earlier stated, the $149 price tag seems stiff when you compare it to other upgrades/benefits like Reason, etc.

Dan

[Beardedone]

Live is not slow on my now two year old P4 2.4 GHz, 1 GB RDRAM Carillon AC1. Indeed, the first load following a new install may take a few minutes but opens within 10 sec thereafter. I ahve no issues with cpu load when running a full project with a few instances of Cameleon5000, Albino 2 and a slew of native + VST Fx. The meter may hit 85% but there are no glitches. My problems lie in my habit of using and reliance on midi note preview.

[kevvvvv]

ew, dgkenney, beardedone ... thanx for your optimism and encouragement.

I guess we all need a bit of inspiration at times

[Beardedone]

You're welcome Kevvvv. I was a bit down on Live mostly due to stroppiness regarding Operator and the lack implementation of my beloved midi note preview. I must add that automation in Live is brilliant. The tweaking possibilities are endless.