ABLETON LIVE 4.1 upgrade , Not happy...

[braj]

yes, I have read this entire thread, every post. and i have come to a conclusion. Just get Reason! now on 3 weeks and zero crashes to report. I've yet to see a song go above about 25% on my cpu meter

And recording audio in Reason is a breeze

ahhh, someone without a sense of humour. how sad. i'll give you a little hint. see the yellow emoticon with grinning teeth I used in that post..yes, that's the one, just above you...that was the sign that I was being silly.

as far as audio recording, that will be possible sooner than you think. that's all I'm saying

You notice the little ? Geez. What a bonehead.

that's not a "funny" emoticon, bonehead. did i call you names? get a life pencildick.

Now who can't take a joke?

Anyway, I personally think Live4 and Reason work really well together, maybe the perfect combination. They give eachother what the other one lacks. Their midi editing is also very similar, so you aren't working with two completely different philosophies. And Rewire works better than in most other combinations.

But to call Reason a 'host' I think it pushing it, it 'hosts' it's own plugs but that's it. And it isn't a full DAW really, even importing audio tracks into NNXT isn't a great solution, though it can be done. Where will you record them in the first place, inside Reason?

[headquest]

I understand where you're coming from we'd all like the apps we use to be better, i'm lucky in that I don't have any meter problems, or stability problems with Live and I'd be pissed if I did.

anyway just zoom in on the clip you want to edit the click out of in the clip properties window, the same place you edit warp markers, you can zoom in to sample level, find your click then right to the left of that box select the volume clip envelope and nudge
it. very fast and easy as pie

Thanks for that stale bread

[stale bread]

no prob, also there's a great book called Live 4 power by chad carrier, it's very good, there was a live 2 powerbook before written by his co author and I think they should've took the power right off the title but this one is worth the money and even has people who already use live looking at it in new ways.

[headquest]

no prob, also there's a great book called Live 4 power by chad carrier, it's very good, there was a live 2 powerbook before written by his co author and I think they should've took the power right off the title but this one is worth the money and even has people who already use live looking at it in new ways.

Thanks for the tip - I may get that. I just read a similar book for Adobe Audition which I found very useful (even though the manual is also good). Books written by independant experts seem to cover different ground, which as you say can give you new ideas. I'd not heard of the Live 4 power.

[Sicklecell666]

no prob, also there's a great book called Live 4 power by chad carrier, it's very good, there was a live 2 powerbook before written by his co author and I think they should've took the power right off the title but this one is worth the money and even has people who already use live looking at it in new ways.

Thanks for the tip - I may get that. I just read a similar book for Adobe Audition which I found very useful (even though the manual is also good). Books written by independant experts seem to cover different ground, which as you say can give you new ideas. I'd not heard of the Live 4 power.

What's the name of the Audition book?

[headquest]

What's the name of the Audition book?

It's called "Audio Editing with Adobe Audition" by Richard Riley (ISBN 1870775-94-5). It deals with version 1.0, but is well worth a read. The manual with v.1.5 covers the upgrade features well.

[Sicklecell666]

excellent; I wasn't aware of the book. Thanks for the isbn!

[braj]

I'm not sure how to do this:

I understand where you're coming from we'd all like the apps we use to be better, i'm lucky in that I don't have any meter problems, or stability problems with Live and I'd be pissed if I did.

anyway just zoom in on the clip you want to edit the click out of in the clip properties window, the same place you edit warp markers, you can zoom in to sample level, find your click then right to the left of that box select the volume clip envelope and nudge
it. very fast and easy as pie

I can only edit the volume on the whole clip, unless I unlink the region/loop, but then I don't see the waveform so I don't know where to edit the volume.. Could you explain this further?

[stale bread]

hi braj, well first you're going to zoom in on the sample in the clip properties window.
to the left you have the clip automation properties info/settings at the top it says 'envelopes'
make sure the first box directly beneath the word envelopes says clips
then the box under that select volume.
the color of the wavform window should change to show that it and automation envelope has been selected. then you may either use breakpoints or you can look at the top of the screen and clip on the pensil tool and draw in automation with that. basicly you just zoom in on the wavform,while auditioning the clip and watch to see where the offending peaks are, zoom in on them and lower the volume at those points.

[rasputin]

Look on the bright side... Reason users (of which I am one) have had to wait 2 years(!) for an extremely lame 2.5 to 3.0 update.

Ableton has, IMO, progressed light years in that time.

I think puting up with the Operator demo is a small price to pay.

2.5 to 3.0 update lame ? MMM im currently Beta teting R3 i know im not supposed to metion this but i ain't giving anything away.
Lame ? from a performing live point of view its brilliant and now you can master within , Lame ? don't talk stupid.

I hesitate to use the word stupid, but do a little experiment. Make two tables, one of the changes from 2.0 to 2.5 and then from 2.5 and 3.0 and then come back and tell us the Combinator and Mastering tools compare.

The Combinator is a cool construct, agreed. But if you use Reason for ALL your production, and have no wave editor at all, I suppose the built in M tools would be interesting. But you could also spend the money you would spend on the upgrade for some good mastering software and be in the same place.

Nope, I'm a Reason fanatic, paid for and used it since 1.0 and I have no interest whatever in upgrading to 3.0. At least not at the present.

Similiarly with Live. Also a fanatic about it, again paid for all the upgrades from 1.5 -> 2.0 -> 3.0 -> 4.0 but frankly I don't see me using the 4.0 (really 4.1 features) that much. But maybe that's because I have other MIDI tools like Sonar.

Your mileage may certainly vary but the innovation that marked the 2.0 / 3.0 releases of Live and 2.5 release of Reason are not, in my opinion, in evidence in their latest releases.

r.

[headquest]

Rasputin:

I recommend you pop over to the Props website and follow the link to the video stream of James Barnard demonstrating Reason 3.0 at NAMM.

I was already convinced (from the beta) that Reason 3.0 is a really good upgrade... but watching the video brought home just HOW good it really is. Seeing the new browser in action for example... WOW.

I was just blown away.

Yes, this IS a very much more significant update than 2.0 to 2.5 was. Version 3.0 REINVENTS what Reason is capable of, and I think that once it's out and widely in use people will cotton on to the paradigm shift in where Reason is now going...

[TVD]

Like I said earlier in the thread... look at Reason. Two years of development and the best they could come up with is a Mastering Suite (for a progam that doesn't even have audio tracks or audio input LOL!), the Combinator, a few fixes and live playing enhancements...

Don't get me wrong, Reason is a great program but TWO YEARS(!) for a minor 2.5 to 3.0 upgrade?

The Ableton team have, IMO, done an outstanding job of developing the program over the last few years. The addition of MIDI and VSTis was quite a welcome and well implemented surprise.

Firstly, Reason has taken about 18 months going from version 2.5 to version 3.0 not two years. Exageration doesn't help your argument.

Secondly, a number of us who have actually played with Reason 3.0 beta responded to your point stating that Reason 3 is a superb upgrade. On paper it may not look impressive, but trust me when I say it is MUCH more than the sum of its parts

Next, to my main point, which is:

It isn't how frequent upgrades come out, but how good they are...

I don't buy a new keyboard every year. Nor do I buy a new microphone every year, a new house each year, or a new car. However, when I DO buy something new, I expect it to work properly.

So look at Reason, indeed. Version 3.0 was on the launch pad some days ago, but the beta crowd found a few more bugs to squish, so work goes on. Reason 3 will not be released until it works perfectly, or as damn near as the Props can get it based on the feedback they receive. That is entirely fair and proper way for a company to behave when they are planning to launch a major product or upgrade.

By comparisson, Ableton only scratched the surface of the many many bugs reported via their swift public beta. They stuck to their original release schedule in spite of all the problems that were becoming apparent. Hence a further 5 upgrades since version 4.0.1

I would rather Ableton had taken 18 months, like the Props, but brought out a product that works properly.

The result is that there are now a massive 10535 posts in 2636 seperate threads in the "Bugs and Problems" section of the Ableton forum, a hefty proportion of which are post Live 4.

In my view that represents an extraordinary failure.

great post.

That is the thing that many fail to realize about Reason..it's like a rock.

every other sequencer on the planet is a bugfest. and I mean EVERY other one. Reason tels you it's features from day one. whether that's enough is a personal decision. but they don't make promises of 'this or that and future features" etc. you take it as it is, but you KNOW it is going to work. version 2 was a point o version with only one update, yes, version 2.5. that wasn't a bug fiz, but just added some tasty new features. Version 3 will be out when the props are ready. you may not like it, but it will work as intented. simple as that.

BTW, are you still happy to be Acid Pro-user after seeing all of this thread ttoz?

[TVD]

yes, I have read this entire thread, every post. and i have come to a conclusion. Just get Reason! now on 3 weeks and zero crashes to report. I've yet to see a song go above about 25% on my cpu meter

And recording audio in Reason is a breeze

...<take two>...

What about audio recording in Live 4? Well:

1) It's easy to do...but...
2) The level meters seem to be broken, so you need to set them really low in order to avoid clipping, etc.
3) There is no wave editing at all.
4) If you start adding VST effects to your audio the CPU issues come to bear - and you get audio dropouts, etc
5) There is no built in mastering tools.

In other words, NEITHER Live 4 NOR Reason provide a full-on solution to all your needs. In fact, even if you have both ReWired together, there are still gaps (audio editing, notation scoring, arpeggiator, Video, Surround...)

However, both have stuff to offer and are useful tools.

Unlike Reason (the soft studio that will never allow you to bring your other synths to the party), At least Live 4 (with all negatives aside) is a REAL host that will always be an open format to use other synths like FM7 (the king of FM synths). Nevermind that the MIDI recording isn't perfect yet!

And yes ttoz, Acid Pro is a real host too. Nevermind that the MIDI recording is nice for synth pads only, but damn is that audio sequencing stupid easy!

[Cabinfever]

one huge failing with acid is that it keeps *every* piece of audio you record, even if you immediately delete a track after recording.

there's simply no way to tell which ones you're using and to delete them from the recording folder.

this was a big request when 5 was being developed, but like all the requested *pro* features, it was completely ignored in favour of shiney baubles and pretty bells.

[headquest]

Unlike Reason (the soft studio that will never allow you to bring your other synths to the party), At least Live 4 (with all negatives aside) is a REAL host that will always be an open format to use other synths like FM7 (the king of FM synths). Nevermind that the MIDI recording isn't perfect yet!

Make no mistake about it Tony - I don't see Reason as a host. I see it as an incredible and powerful performance instrument that happens also to sequence/record, which most synths also do.

Live 4 is a host of course, but not a very good one, because it is inefficient at hosting things! WHat's the point of being able to "host" VST instruments and effects if the CPU and audio give out after you load around four plug-ins?

That's why I find Tracktion to be a far superiour host - it can actually host many synths and effects without struggling, and an almost endless number if you use freeze.

So I'm not entirely sure of the point of your post, except that you may have noticed elsewhere that I am a Reason user. Tracktion is my main host, Reason is my main instrument, Audition is my audio editor, Sibelius covers notation excellently, and this is how I choose to cover all bases.

Live 4 has lots of potential and it remains on my hard drive, but isn't yet capable as a host.