articulating, crisp 1/16 bass

[JoeSchmoe]

Well, with so many great synths already mentioned, there´s only one I can add : http://www.kvraudio.com/get/187.html.

I don´t know if you refuse to work with sample-based synths, but I know people who make progressive house and melodic trance for a living (I know, it´s not the same as psy-trance...) and won´t even touch anything else for basses.

[moonlite]

AND GUESS WHAT? THEY /DO/ SOUND DIFFERENT!!

well huh

beats me

mebbe it ever occured to you that DIFFERENT is good enuff for some people, and that GOOD is kinda an offensive concept in light of DIFFERENT???

umm.. didn't quite get you here, what I ment is this:

some of those synths sound much better than others. some sound much crisper and less boomy than others. what I am saying that the synth you use for the basses are HUGELY different from each other.

the reason for me to say this is that people seem to have the attitude that the synth I use don't matter at all. that I just have to learn how to mix it correctly

I was just trying to point out that I know how to mix it and am just looking for a good synth to work with (oh god why do I have to repeat this over and over)

ffs

you're asking a list 1/2 composed of DEVELOPERS

you mean kvr in general?

what you want us to say? "yeah, my shit s good, they're all naff"

or do you want the honest answer?

"find your own good"

hum, seems to be a misunderstanding here

I wasn't asking for a generally "good" synth. my question was /very/ specific.

what I was asking for in the original post was a synth that has a much broader spectral content than the usual subtractive. and with much less boom in the lower areas of the spectrum.

and that has envelopes that are good for tweaking bass sounds @ 1/16 notes ..

I was just hoping that maybe some of you have similar needs and have found a great synth to work with.

it became really furstrating when almost everybody was just saying "you just don't know how to do it" "you're doing it wrong if those synths are not good enough". I mean .. maybe they're ok for you but maybe I'm trying to do something else. that doesn't mean I do something wrong??

this schism in public attitudes (articulate vs. consumer) is why these threads always go on and on and on

hum, don't quite follow you here either ..

but thanks for not patronizing ..[/quote]

[moonlite]

Well, with so many great synths already mentioned, there´s only one I can add : http://www.kvraudio.com/get/187.html.

I don´t know if you refuse to work with sample-based synths, but I know people who make progressive house and melodic trance for a living (I know, it´s not the same as psy-trance...) and won´t even touch anything else for basses.

oh?? .. hmm, interresting .. I've heard it's good, but have rejected the idea so far ..

but I guess I'll have to try it now ;)

not on the top of my list though, but i /will/ try it. thanks, bro =)

p.s. they use trilogys own samples or .. ?

[Ackelito]

Moonlite, dont get so upset, didnt i tell you to calm down some pages back.. man you got to learn to listen without taking things too personal

Everybody in here makes music! and you say that you work so hard and everybody else is just lamers who dont know nothing(thats actually how it sound to me)

you really dont know anything about anyone in here..
or how hard they work with their music..

some people give you their honest opinion and some people are just riding on your frustration that it all got so messed up, and you act like you need to tell everyone how good you are and how much you know if you know it, ignore it.. its pretty easy. Dont waste energy on things that dont need it..

if i was you i would just calm down and sort out the good from the bad, in my opinion people who are honest probably havent really understood what you are after... you say you want a synth for crisp basses, okej thats one thing.. now suddenly you show some samples on some music that you like and which basses you want to come close to.. what should people do? advice you on synths or how you create likewise basses? really all they can do is to tell you how they do it and what kind of stuff they would try.. its not like they tell you "THIS I HOW YOU DO IT"!
If someone ask you a question if you know how todo a thing and you respond almost like - do you think im stupid iv been doing this thing for 10 years -,
i dont think its a valid answer.. a simple yes or no would do, or you just explain the whole operation and the question is answerd and solved.

there are cases where people have done things for a long period of time and when somebody ask them something about what they do they cant go deeper in the matter than the knowledge they have acquired, even if you think that they should know it, some people ride waves and some people dig deep..



at times you sound narrowminded.. not at all open for ideas.. even if you know how things work you must be able to discuss basic stuff with others without feeling that they insult you.. even if they do you should not act like that, it will only generate more insults, in my opinion...

i dont think people have been overexaggerated rude to you...

they been pretty humble, i know at times i would have wanted to tell you one thing and another... but i havent cause you seem to missunderstand so many things..

all i can say now is, you have a freaking arsenal of bass synths at your feets, why not just settle with what your best effort can do for you and get on with it... those psytrance basses are pretty simple if you look at it from a musical point of view, the secret behind that they sound so good is all about the context and many hours behind the mixing desk...
with various prodcution tools like Eq and compressors. Even without those tools some basic audio editing(amp control) will make a kick and bass blend together very well...

but thats just my opinion.. some might say something else... you would probably say something else

i think its not good to have too many synths, it will only make one confused,(at least me) if one synth dosent get you close to the thing you want, and you have tried everything that you can think of then maybe its time to try another one.. if you honestly can say that you have been digging as deep as YOU can with those synths that you dismissed then i just have to believe you.. too bad it didnt give you any satisfying results...

dont get mad now.. you should know your self and your limitations... i wont lie to you, im not a star at making baselines or even music.. im pretty bad,
i dont know much about synthesizers or how i could achieve the sounds i want.. only to a certain limit. my own educational limit..

i cant dismiss a synth cause i dont know how to make it sound good for me.. not when i know others have made the darn thing sound super cool.. the fault must be on my side..

i hade that view on the freaking Vb1 before, ohh this synth just dont cut it for me.. well it was just me that didnt cut it..

now when im somewhat close to make good basses with the damn thing i know it was just me who did not know enough.. and yes i dont like the synth that much cause everybody is using it, but i wont say that it sound bad, its defenitly in the top ten of bass synths, of what i got right now..

so thats some of my view points, now read it some times so you understand at least a bit of what i mean, you dont have to answer right away or even answer at all..

im not saying that you dont know you stuff.. im just saying that it sounds odd that you need so many synths for a bass that you know is made either out of Vb1 or ES2 or muon tau pro or any of the usual suspects...

if you would have said that you are looking a for a original bass sound it would have been more interesting

[moonlite]

Moonlite, dont get so upset, didnt i tell you to calm down some pages back.. man you got to learn to listen 8) without taking things too personal

heh, yeah, I really have to get used to these boards ;)

funny, though, every other thread seems to have went quite ok .. until now ;P

Everybody in here makes music! and you say that you work so hard and everybody else is just lamers who dont know nothing(thats actually how it sound to me)

uh, sorry everybody. that's not what I meant ..

to me it sounds like everybodys thinking "here's a guy that don't know anything. let's give him a roundup of basic mixing techniques" "it's not a new synth he needs but just some classes in mixing basics!"

you really dont know anything about anyone in here..
or how hard they work with their music..

as said I'm not implying that THEY don't know. all I'm trying to say is that /I/ DO ..

well ok, maybe once I said something in that direction but that was just to provoke this thread away from the basics and more into advanced stuff.. and into synths! the original question was about synths but nobody wants to discuss them!

some people give you their honest opinion and some people are just riding on your frustration that it all got so messed up, and you act like you need to tell everyone how good you are and how much you know ;) if you know it, ignore it.. its pretty easy. Dont waste energy on things that dont need it..

if i was you i would just calm down and sort out the good from the bad, in my opinion people who are honest probably havent really understood what you are after...

well, the original post was pretty clear, wasn't it?

#1, this is the _instruments_ section of kvr. not production tips section or what ever.

#2 "what synth would you recommend for 1/16 psytrance basslines? "

so, I'm clearly looking for a synth

#3 "I want an really well articulating, crisp sound which can be played at really low notes and still sound full but not muddy."

ok, so I'm looking for something out of the ordinary, right? (is it too unclear that i'm still speaking about a synth, this being a instruments thread and all?)

#4 "I've tried v-station, es-2, tau and a bunch of others.. all way too muddy"

and by this I don't nesseccerrily mean that they are /generally/ but to /THIS SPECIFIC/ application they are.

#5 "I need some exceptional articulation. "

again, doesn't this make it clear that I'm not looking for a "normal" bass sound, but something /different/, something new and exciting?


well .. could be that I wasn't clear enough on these points ... but I don't understand how I could've made it clearer =/

ok, so maybe I didn't make #4 as clear as I could, but .. well .. that couldn't be the only thing that f**ked up the thread, could it? :P

argh, always the finest details that f**k up an otherwise beatufull thing, aint it? ;)

you say you want a synth for crisp basses, okej thats one thing.. now suddenly you show some samples on some music that you like and which basses you want to come close to.. what should people do? advice you on synths or how you create likewise basses? really all they can do is to tell you how they do it and what kind of stuff they would try.. its not like they tell you "THIS I HOW YOU DO IT"!
If someone ask you a question if you know how todo a thing and you respond almost like - do you think im stupid iv been doing this thing for 10 years -,
i dont think its a valid answer.. a simple yes or no would do, or you just explain the whole operation and the question is answerd and solved.

there are cases where people have done things for a long period of time and when somebody ask them something about what they do they cant go deeper in the matter than the knowledge they have acquired, even if you think that they should know it, some people ride waves and some people dig deep..



at times you sound narrowminded.. not at all open for ideas.. even if you know how things work you must be able to discuss basic stuff with others without feeling that they insult you.. even if they do you should not act like that, it will only generate more insults, in my opinion...

no, no, you see, I play around with all kinds of stuff, try out new mixing techniques and stuff all the thime. I'm just trying to keep the focus on synths when everybody's telling me "you just don't know how to mix"

i dont think people have been overexaggerated rude to you...

they been pretty humble, i know at times i would have wanted to tell you one thing and another... but i havent cause you seem to missunderstand so many things..

yeah, this thread is loaded with misunderstandings .. it IS one big misunderstanding ;P .. on both parts ;P .. I think these boards are (for me) the wrong media to discuss anything serious, except for feature requests ;P that's why I'd like to lock it ;P

all i can say now is, you have a freaking arsenal of bass synths at your feets, why not just settle with what your best effort can do for you and get on with it... those psytrance basses are pretty simple if you look at it from a musical point of view, the secret behind that they sound so good is all about the context and many hours behind the mixing desk...
with various prodcution tools like Eq and compressors. Even without those tools some basic audio editing(amp control) will make a kick and bass blend together very well...

you speak as if I wouldn't know this!?! (no, just kidding here, heh ;)) ... (don't get your point tho ..)

but thats just my opinion.. some might say something else... you would probably say something else :lol: :wink:

i think its not good to have too many synths, it will only make one confused,(at least me) if one synth dosent get you close to the thing you want, and you have tried everything that you can think of then maybe its time to try another one.. if you honestly can say that you have been digging as deep as YOU can with those synths that you dismissed then i just have to believe you.. too bad it didnt give you any satisfying results...

SPEAK OF THE DEVIL! :D

(as we were discussing misunderstandings)

..

I didn't say I'm trying to use them all on one song, did I? :D .. I was saying that I'm testing them out, side by side, to see which sounds best =)

the point of this whole thread was that I wouldn't have to try out /EVERY/ synth there is, if people came up with good suggestions..

dont get mad now.. you should know your self and your limitations... i wont lie to you, im not a star at making baselines or even music.. im pretty bad,
i dont know much about synthesizers or how i could achieve the sounds i want.. only to a certain limit. my own educational limit..

yeah, I'm pretty aware of my limitations. it's really hard work and I'm learning each day. I've been reading pretty much about synthesis and production techniques so in theory I know pretty well how to acheieve a certain sound when I've got the right tools to do it.

and this thread is about finding the tools I need to make a crisp, full, psy bassline.

i cant dismiss a synth cause i dont know how to make it sound good for me.. not when i know others have made the darn thing sound super cool.. the fault must be on my side..

the patches I use are so simple that I can see right away if a synth has the sound I'm looking for or not.

i hade that view on the freaking Vb1 before, ohh this synth just dont cut it for me.. well it was just me that didnt cut it..

yeah, once I made this same mistake, too .. but now I know much more =)

now when im somewhat close to make good basses with the damn thing i know it was just me who did not know enough.. and yes i dont like the synth that much cause everybody is using it, but i wont say that it sound bad, its defenitly in the top ten of bass synths, of what i got right now..

of course it doesn't sound bad, c'mon, its /the/ psy bass =)

so thats some of my view points, now read it some times so you understand at least a bit of what i mean, you dont have to answer right away or even answer at all..

im not saying that you dont know you stuff.. im just saying that it sounds odd that you need so many synths for a bass that you know is made either out of Vb1 or ES2 or muon tau pro or any of the usual suspects...

well as I said before, I'm not trying to use them all at once, I'm just trying them out to see which sounds best =))

and I do NOT think that ES2 or tau are used on the type of sound that I'm looking for. I've worked a LOT with es2

and as I stated in the original post "I don't want to resort to vb-1 yeet" .. I want to find something better, something more versatile.

otherwise I'd be using vb1, right? =)

ultimately I want to create an even better sound that can be made with vb-1. but ATM vb-1 seems to be the king.

if you would have said that you are looking a for a original bass sound it would have been more interesting 8)

you mean an acoustic bass or electic bass?

[jsd]

Well, with so many great synths already mentioned, there´s only one I can add : http://www.kvraudio.com/get/187.html.

I don´t know if you refuse to work with sample-based synths, but I know people who make progressive house and melodic trance for a living (I know, it´s not the same as psy-trance...) and won´t even touch anything else for basses.

i gotta second this. i was totally skeptical but the synth bass section in trilogy is unbelievable. i hardly use anything else any more.

[moonlite]

Well, with so many great synths already mentioned, there´s only one I can add : http://www.kvraudio.com/get/187.html.

I don´t know if you refuse to work with sample-based synths, but I know people who make progressive house and melodic trance for a living (I know, it´s not the same as psy-trance...) and won´t even touch anything else for basses.

i gotta second this. i was totally skeptical but the synth bass section in trilogy is unbelievable. i hardly use anything else any more.

oh :o .. kewl ..

[hjack]

how will you ever sound different and amaaazing asking others about their tricks and technics, you'll just sound as everybody

[moonlite]

how will you ever sound different and amaaazing asking others about their tricks and technics, you'll just sound as everybody

well that's why I only asked for a synth

heh, this almost gets amusing .. how is it possible that almost everybody thinks I'm asking for production advice when I don't want that at all :D

and if you're talking about the trinity, I don't think that many psy guys are using that ..

and even if they are, I'm looking for a versatile piece of equipment anyway. and if the trilogy that, I'll just keep tweakin' until I get it to sound better than anybody before =)

so I think it's worth a shot =)

[Andywanders]

Well, after more than twenty five years recording, mixing etc. I still don't know "all that stuff". Of course I can't speak for everyone at KVR, but I think most of us here enjoy learning things from each other.

don't respond with mixing advice. I know all that stuff already. I've been tweaking basses for 10 years. haven't tested all the synths though, so there's where I'd like to have recommendations.

If you get a good bass out of an 303 emulator, that's cool, but that's not what I'm looking for. ok?

And then...

hum, don't quite follow you here either ..

but thanks for not patronizing ...

Seems a little ironic to me...

Never mind.



BTW want some synth recommendations..?

Triangle II has already been mentioned so I won't mention it again... Oops..!

Synth 1 (though free) makes nice basses.

And maybe this will help...

http://www.kvraudio.com/get/1483.html

It has very quick envelopes that sync to bpm.

Good luck to ya.

And stay cool.

[stefancrs]

Imo, main importance is good oscillators and good filters. I'd say that polyIblit might even be the best synth for these things.

edit: no, it isn't. Been playing with it now and it lacks "phase reset" for the oscillators.

To avoid muddyness make sure you are playing the sound monophonic, and you _must_ get rid of the lowest bass by EQ'ing. In those examples of psybass you posted they did not have any low bass in the basslines.

But again, this might be things you already know. But any synth must be treated like this, but you might have to EQ different synths in different manners since their oscillators probably have different spectrums.

I actually don't know any synth with as good filters and oscillators as polyIblit that also has phase reset on the oscillators.
Anyone got any tips on such a synth?

[nocompromise]

to me it sounds like everybodys thinking "here's a guy that don't know anything. let's give him a roundup of basic mixing techniques" "it's not a new synth he needs but just some classes in mixing basics!"

i've been following this with some interest. either you don't understand the concept your asking about or your 1st language isn't English?
FFS Sound is just a bunch of frequencies. U know fundamental, harmonics etc. I think u understand this much.
U say all the synths u try are too boomy and don't cut through properly. U've already been given plenty of advice to sort that out. U don't seem to understand it and keep asking the same question.
Everyone is telling u different synths cos it has nothing to do with the synth. And yeah different synths sound different. U've also been told why and srgue against it. Still saying u want THE synth.
If someone else is producing THE sound u want, FFS sample it, job done. Whats the problem?
Honestly, if u can't get the sound u want with the tools we've got, ur doing something wrong. Especially after 10 years of making music.
All u need is experience in mixing. Ever tried to mix rock music or something else u don't make/like? It can be very informative.
Perhaps ur listening to the sound in isolation? You'll never find it that way. U need to tweak the sound in context of the mix.
Perhaps you're using the wrong viewpoint. I know very well the problems of communication in the studio. And its very rare to use the same language (as the band/artist) to describe things even if you're on the right musical wavelength.
But more likely, you're just trying to make this more complicated than it really is. (And who hasn't done this?)
Having said all that, and I'm not trying to offend u, please THINK about how to create the sound u want. Its really not that hard..............

Its not really about what synth u use or how u program it. Or the actual sound of it. That is irrelevant. Take a pure sine wave and make it do what u want. Make it function in the way u want. ie make it articulating and crisp. Bear in mind there ain't gonna be no boominess on a sine wave, so no need to remove that and there aint gonna be any harmonics to help it cut through.
Now this is your problem. U can't do that despite all your years of mixing experience. And u want a quick fix (sample it, see above). There is no quick fix or supersynth to achieve this. Its all down to u. So what u gonna do? Bitch about how no-one understands u or think about it and sort it out.
Either ur heros are superhuman and have magical powers over crisp articulating bass or YOU are doing something wrong.

BTW I don't even understand why u want this specific bass sound. Why do u want to sound like someone else? Why not make something better than ur favourite band/artist? Wouldn't u feel better?

PS If I'm patronising u don't take offence m8 theres none meant.

[stefancrs]

to me it sounds like everybodys thinking "here's a guy that don't know anything. let's give him a roundup of basic mixing techniques" "it's not a new synth he needs but just some classes in mixing basics!"

i've been following this with some interest. either you don't understand the concept your asking about or your 1st language isn't English?
FFS Sound is just a bunch of frequencies. U know fundamental, harmonics etc. I think u understand this much.
U say all the synths u try are too boomy and don't cut through properly. U've already been given plenty of advice to sort that out. U don't seem to understand it and keep asking the same question.
Everyone is telling u different synths cos it has nothing to do with the synth. And yeah different synths sound different. U've also been told why and srgue against it. Still saying u want THE synth.
If someone else is producing THE sound u want, FFS sample it, job done. Whats the problem?
Honestly, if u can't get the sound u want with the tools we've got, ur doing something wrong. Especially after 10 years of making music.
All u need is experience in mixing. Ever tried to mix rock music or something else u don't make/like? It can be very informative.
Perhaps ur listening to the sound in isolation? You'll never find it that way. U need to tweak the sound in context of the mix.
Perhaps you're using the wrong viewpoint. I know very well the problems of communication in the studio. And its very rare to use the same language (as the band/artist) to describe things even if you're on the right musical wavelength.
But more likely, you're just trying to make this more complicated than it really is. (And who hasn't done this?)
Having said all that, and I'm not trying to offend u, please THINK about how to create the sound u want. Its really not that hard..............

Its not really about what synth u use or how u program it. Or the actual sound of it. That is irrelevant. Take a pure sine wave and make it do what u want. Make it function in the way u want. ie make it articulating and crisp. Bear in mind there ain't gonna be no boominess on a sine wave, so no need to remove that and there aint gonna be any harmonics to help it cut through.
Now this is your problem. U can't do that despite all your years of mixing experience. And u want a quick fix (sample it, see above). There is no quick fix or supersynth to achieve this. Its all down to u. So what u gonna do? Bitch about how no-one understands u or think about it and sort it out.
Either ur heros are superhuman and have magical powers over crisp articulating bass or YOU are doing something wrong.

BTW I don't even understand why u want this specific bass sound. Why do u want to sound like someone else? Why not make something better than ur favourite band/artist? Wouldn't u feel better?

PS If I'm patronising u don't take offence m8 theres none meant.

It is about the synth though. For these sounds, if not sampling them, you need phase reset on the oscillators upon each note on.

[braj]

I'm sure glad Jimi Hendrix didn't spend this much time picking out guitars

I tend to agree that it's really other things besides the synth that you should focus on, not that there aren't synths out there that wouldn't be great for you. It's just that it sounds like you are taking your creative energy and expending it in the wrong place IMO. Work with your limitations. There's 6 or 7 pages of ranting in this thread, imagine the music that you could have been making?

Sorry, no offense intended. It's just like sex though really, it's not how big your boat is, but how you rock it.

[nocompromise]

It is about the synth though. For these sounds, if not sampling them, you need phase reset on the oscillators upon each note on.

FFS No its not. Or are u suggesting that a bass guitar can't be articulating and crisp?
Course we all know a bass guitar has got 'phase reset on the oscillators upon each note on'........