KVR Audio

topaz · Post by **topaz** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:52 pm

actually to prove my point I just had a listen to a few of the breaks in the archive.

most of them are sampled from newer recordings that have been sampled from retro artists.

who said Amen Break

herodotus · Post by **herodotus** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:54 pm

topaz wrote:umm.

sorry but I think this is a slight over reaction,
(I understand you concern Peter but I can pretty much rest assure all of you there are commercial sample cd's out there by big name companys using sample from vinyl beats.

this is something that is done over and over again since sampling history, nost recycle and re-arrange stuff anyway, afaik there is no hard and fast law over drum beats.

whole chunks of music or major melody is a different ball game.

anyway, just my opinion.

cheers/
topaz

The question is: why use sampled beats at all?

Have you seen how many free (and legal) drum loops are out there?

topaz · Post by **topaz** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:55 pm

yeh I checked some, most are either remakes or direct copies of classic breaks.

herodotus wrote:The question is: why use sampled beats at all?

Have you seen how many free (and legal) drum loops are out there?

munchkin · Post by **munchkin** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:56 pm

I would like to take this opportunity to discuss what I can and cannot use on my Audioshots site. I'm interested in sonic art. I'm starting a course in Sept. I'm interested in the use of montage visually and through audio. It's what I hope to study through-out the 3 years of the course.

Montage is has been an essential element in modernism and often makes up a substantial part of art and sonic installations. I hope to host this art on my site. Some of it may contain a mix of original work and copyright material. I'm interested in the use of montage of copyright and non-copyright material because it is then possible, through contrast, to draw out contradictions in meaning. This subtextual element is very important to my art.

I understand Audioshots to be, in theory, a place to cultivate music and art. Maybe I'm wrong about this but it would be useful to clarify whether I would be in breach of the rules by using my site to share my art.

declassified · Post by **declassified** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 7:57 pm

herodotus wrote:The question is: why use sampled beats at all?

Have you seen how many free (and legal) drum loops are out there?

Easy to answer:

Because searching for breaks on records is MUCH harder and therefor requires A LOT more effort than just buying a CD with drumloops.

It's what they call "diggin the crates".

Jbravo · Post by **Jbravo** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:02 pm

just because something is harder to achieve doesn't necessarily make it more desirable.... though I don't think listening to a lot of records is harder than making your own samples.

I think there's a difference when it comes to sampling for your own use/creativity. If you want to publish your work (including on the net) you have to clear those samples or pay the price!

Ackelito · Post by **Ackelito** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:10 pm

@Ackelito: I may not be able to explain the "black art of sampling" to you. Listen to DJ Shadow or LTJ Bukem and you'll see that sampling is more than stealing.
And guess what: You can bet that both of them have "their mind on alert", as you said. How else would they have gotten so far?

you should have told the facts in your first post, it would had saved us from all these reactions...
how is one suposed to use these loops for example, i mean some dudes might just use them as they are and end up getting a lawsuite....

DJ-shadow is very good! and i really have nothing against people that have a idea that will result to a cool song..

i wont judge others from now on... ill suite my own business! its just a waste of time and energy!

declassified · Post by **declassified** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:10 pm

Ok so the second reason could be that you'd rather like to spend your money on records than on synthesizers. I spent a lot of money on records and I'd hate to spend that money on sampling CDs.
Also, breaks sampled from records (especially old, crap record quality) have a certain character that's impossible to achieve with a drum library. You may want to say that you can bend a drumloop to everything using effects, but you can't make the drum kit sound special. That's also the reason why some breaks are more popular than others. The "Amen", for example, sounds very hard and dirty, with a lot of impact. Ready to be taken further using equalizer/reverb/etc. And you couldn't get a library drumloop to sound close to that.

Jbravo wrote:I think there's a difference when it comes to sampling for your own use/creativity. If you want to publish your work (including on the net) you have to clear those samples or pay the price!

I already posted that. Did you read it?

This pack is by no means my "work".

topaz · Post by **topaz** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:25 pm

ok, I used a sampled break beat on a track about 2 years ago (chopped to f**k mind you) we actually emailed the company that owned the (rare and old recording)

"Dir Sir, the record in question is now 27 years old and at time sold about 200 copies, if you can sell more by using this stock drum beat (probably copied from someone else) then good luck.

Jbravo wrote:If you want to publish your work (including on the net) you have to clear those samples or pay the price!

declassified · Post by **declassified** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 8:59 pm

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:12 pm

Well f**k me, that is a damn shame! I totally see why Sp3d etc wont host this stuff for legal reasons, but for f**ks sake whats with all this moral bs. A few guys sharing some old breaks is in no way imoral imo, and if i had a server I'd host that shit in an instant. No one is claiming that they own this stuff, or that its their work. And no one is planning to make money out of it.

Sampling is like dope smoking - fine when done discretely and not mixed with beer!

topaz · Post by **topaz** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:21 pm

in all fairness Peter is just being safe I guess
he does run an awesome service and any tiny risk is bad.

nuff said.

tee boy wrote:Well f**k me, that is a damn shame! I totally see why Sp3d etc wont host this stuff for legal reasons, but for f**ks sake whats with all this moral bs. A few guys sharing some old breaks is in no way imoral imo, and if i had a server I'd host that shit in an instant. No one is claiming that they own this stuff, or that its their work. And no one is planning to make money out of it.

Sampling is like dope smoking - fine when done discretely and not mixed with beer!

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 9:30 pm

Oh i agree totally. I have no ill will towards the man for enforcing this rule.

Its just a shame thats all! Im sure you'll agree that there is nothing bad about declassified sharing a few of his sampled breaks for us to play around with. Pity the laws around sampling are so out dated (not that i could think of a better way to protect peoples work

).

Declassified,

If you do find a place to share these breaks, please send me a PM (or email if the mods would prefer it) cuz Im an avid collector! Again, you can never have enough breaks

Ackelito · Post by **Ackelito** » Sun Feb 20, 2005 10:11 pm

tee boy wrote:Well f**k me, that is a damn shame! I totally see why Sp3d etc wont host this stuff for legal reasons, but for f**ks sake whats with all this moral bs. A few guys sharing some old breaks is in no way imoral imo, and if i had a server I'd host that shit in an instant. No one is claiming that they own this stuff, or that its their work. And no one is planning to make money out of it.

Sampling is like dope smoking - fine when done discretely and not mixed with beer!

Smoking weed does not have to be done discretely and its perfectly fine to mix with beer

if you have the moral that sampling from other songs is okej then i guess you have nothing to say if someone does the same to you..

the fact that its a genre to it all makes the thing more accepted...
but still its not my cup of tea, im taking back that its lame, cause it can be cool...

there are so many forms of making music i guess noting is better or worse...

cant blame me for looking at things from my perspective though..

tee boy · Post by **tee boy** » Mon Feb 21, 2005 1:25 am

Its not so much that I dont care about sampling music. I do have BIG issues with people claiming samples as their own music and that goes for both cleared and uncleared stuff (but thats another story). Point is that the vast majority of drum samples that we use are created using unlicensed breaks. If you use Reason, again 99% those hits are from the breaks (not saying they're uncleared!). If you buy sample CD's you are using this stuff again. Nobody I know clears every single hit they sample. Many dont even bother to clear anything, loops and all.

And this really is my point about this moralistic shit being total bollocks. The old breaks are fair game, end of story. If you use drum samples at all then you are using this stuff probably without even knowing it. Its simply how drum samples are made. You sample a couple of snares, layer them, maybe add synthesised elements, process the result... and thats your drum hit. Atleast this is how I use the old stuff, and I know countless TOP pro's who work in the same way. Im not talking about stealing performances, Im talking about using this stuff as source material for new original sounds.

It just strikes me as a little hypocritical that a place like this should condemn the sampling of old vinyl to such an extent, but have no issue with promoting products created using these methods! At least we only want to use them for our own private music, lol. I own so many top selling soundware products that are created using totally illegal source material. Yet these are the people who soon jump in and start shouting about copyrights and how they should be adhered to.

But I'll shut up now, before I get myself in trouble...

Sp3d, respect for sticking to your guns. You obviously believe in your convictions and I have no problem with that at all. I just dont want anyone thinking that people who share this stuff are somehow being shady.