Tee boy, just out of curiosity, WHY is sampling old vinyl the norm? I mean the world is FILLED with drummers. Not all of them suck. Some are actually pretty good.
I'm not being a smart ass. I am just curious.
nothing
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
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- KVRAF
- 1906 posts since 5 Feb, 2005 from UK - Stafford/Lancaster (uni)
Is it the actualy "audio" thats the problem or the "idea"?
The majority of drum beats around are copied,they have to be, if every person laid claim to a drum beat we'd have none left.
Isnt taking something/a drum loop off vinyl the same as drawing the same drum pattern on a midi score editor? Who owns rights to what? Who owns copyright to the idea/the audio etc etc.
In fact i'll ask my law teacher next lesson, heh.
WoJ
The majority of drum beats around are copied,they have to be, if every person laid claim to a drum beat we'd have none left.
Isnt taking something/a drum loop off vinyl the same as drawing the same drum pattern on a midi score editor? Who owns rights to what? Who owns copyright to the idea/the audio etc etc.
In fact i'll ask my law teacher next lesson, heh.
WoJ
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- KVRAF
- 2356 posts since 30 Sep, 2003 from Sunny Staffordshire
herodotus,
Probably because much of modern music has routes in old hip hop, house and breaks - all of which relied on sampling. Even today, the vast majority of commerical urban music is created using samples. Even the mix engineers sample stuff to enhance and sweeten the tracks they work on. Its just become a custom. The old vinyl has a character too which would be tricky to reproduce authentically today. At least you wouldnt do it with a computer setup like ours.
As for live drummers, I dont think that is really an issue. I mean, you get a live drummer because of the feel and performance. For single hits which are likely to be layered and prcessed, it really makes no sense. Think of it like this, if you had to arrange a session everytime you wanted a hi hat, then it wouldnt be very cost effective to make samples!
Some people do still use lie drummers. Heard the 'Planet of the Breaks' series? f**king wicked sample CD's all recorded live. But part of their charm is in the fact that they actually exaggerate much of what makes the old vinyl so special.
Wojdude,
I actually studied this stuff for quite a while at uni myself. This is where i learned all these misconceptions about sampling and audio copyright! But I dont think anyone will argue that at heart the rules are pretty simple - all phonographic material has a copyright, and if you want to use said material you need to clear that with the owner first.
Problem comes when new art forms arise which use said material to create new original work. The law doesnt take this into account as yet, and I really dont see how it could. This is why a kind of 'it goes on but you dont talk about it' type a scenerio has occured. Practically every loops CD out there has illegal material on it to some extent. I even heard that some of the old classic drum machines do to! This has become quietly accepted as fair game. This doesnt me you can sample 4 bars from every record in you collection and sell it - it means that you can use this stuff discretely in the creation of your own original sounds.
And to me sharing breaks and samples is just like passing a joint between mates - its half the fun!
PS. Ok, enough of the pot analogies (i dont even smoke any more!).
Probably because much of modern music has routes in old hip hop, house and breaks - all of which relied on sampling. Even today, the vast majority of commerical urban music is created using samples. Even the mix engineers sample stuff to enhance and sweeten the tracks they work on. Its just become a custom. The old vinyl has a character too which would be tricky to reproduce authentically today. At least you wouldnt do it with a computer setup like ours.
As for live drummers, I dont think that is really an issue. I mean, you get a live drummer because of the feel and performance. For single hits which are likely to be layered and prcessed, it really makes no sense. Think of it like this, if you had to arrange a session everytime you wanted a hi hat, then it wouldnt be very cost effective to make samples!
Some people do still use lie drummers. Heard the 'Planet of the Breaks' series? f**king wicked sample CD's all recorded live. But part of their charm is in the fact that they actually exaggerate much of what makes the old vinyl so special.
Wojdude,
I actually studied this stuff for quite a while at uni myself. This is where i learned all these misconceptions about sampling and audio copyright! But I dont think anyone will argue that at heart the rules are pretty simple - all phonographic material has a copyright, and if you want to use said material you need to clear that with the owner first.
Problem comes when new art forms arise which use said material to create new original work. The law doesnt take this into account as yet, and I really dont see how it could. This is why a kind of 'it goes on but you dont talk about it' type a scenerio has occured. Practically every loops CD out there has illegal material on it to some extent. I even heard that some of the old classic drum machines do to! This has become quietly accepted as fair game. This doesnt me you can sample 4 bars from every record in you collection and sell it - it means that you can use this stuff discretely in the creation of your own original sounds.
And to me sharing breaks and samples is just like passing a joint between mates - its half the fun!
PS. Ok, enough of the pot analogies (i dont even smoke any more!).
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- KVRist
- 192 posts since 18 Apr, 2002 from In The Middle Of A SoundPicture
yeah im sorry for that... i came off a bit wrong! just didnt think straight... been a bit egdy the whole day...munchkin wrote:Calm down Ackelito!Ackelito wrote:declassified wrote:I took them down, but fair enough: You don't have a grain of an idea what sampling really is.Ackelito wrote:Sampled from songs sounds lame! who with their mind on alert would do this?
i would get furious if somebody sampled the drums from a tune i did...
it cant be right, no matter what the law says!
if i wanted a certain style of drums i would try to create them my self!' it sounds like some people want to make things real simple for them selfs!
baahh f**king lamers!
Spe3D! dont support such actions!!!
maybe not! but if you would clarify what sampling really is i would know! right now it sounds like its raw samplings from other songs..
is it a food samples?
So what is "samples from songs"? can you be more clear?
anyway, do what ever you please! i just think its kind of lame sampling drums or sounds from songs...
not all will share my opinion! each to their own..
Please share the black art of sampling??
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Vurt, i know!
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hlmst - to be true with you, i dont give a f**king shit about the production/sampling industry!
you do what you want to do! act lame if thats your game!The guy's taken the samples down as requested. I have a 'soon to be developed site' (been saying that since I got it!
) at Audioshot that I've paid for. I'll respect the rules there.
Ackelito, just because you don't agree with using samples of other music in your music doesn't make it 'lame'. The majority of dance music, pop and hip hop sample other tunes and breaks. That's the reality hlmst is trying to point out. It's illegal to market it as your own music but as long as copyright is paid what's the problem? It's the foundation of a lot of pop hits and I'm sure that whoever did the Kylie/Blue Monday mix didn't clear all the samples until after creating the mix and testing it out on white label. Technically that may be illegal but that's how it's worked for the last two decades.
It's one thing to request that sharing of breaks and samples doesn't happen on a site and I'm cool with that. Warning people not to do it is the way to go. But to have people accusing others of being 'lame' and insulting them because they create music in a different way is just rude.
sorry for offending you guys! it was just the sentence "Sampling from songs" that cought my attention, of course i know its done, it still sounds pretty bad if you havent asked for permission!
this sort of breaks/beats can be very good for educational purpose...
anyway sorry for being rude! i did not think clear!
LaterZzzz......
A fellow of the strangest mind in the world
A fellow of the strangest mind in the world
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- KVRAF
- 4749 posts since 15 Jul, 2001 from Holmfirth, West Yorkshire, U.K
blinding !!
wojdude wrote:The majority of drum beats around are copied, they have to be, if every person laid claim to a drum beat we'd have none left.
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- KVRAF
- 3139 posts since 6 Sep, 2002 from United Kingdom & Opinions Will Travel :O)
vurt wrote:Ackelito wrote:
Spe3D! dont support such actions!!!
he doesnt.
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- KVRAF
- 3139 posts since 6 Sep, 2002 from United Kingdom & Opinions Will Travel :O)
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- KVRist
- 326 posts since 13 Sep, 2002 from Perth Western Australia
I'm pretty sure there is a law against owning an Mp3 player too.. Sure doesn't scare Sony or Apple off for selling these things. Pretty much everything is illegal anyway.
listen to my tunes here:
http://soundcloud.com/damien-chamizo
http://soundcloud.com/damien-chamizo
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- KVRist
- 50 posts since 10 Dec, 2004
Really? news to me that everything is illegal - ClearShots are now no longer given out - Full Stop!AudioWhore wrote:I'm pretty sure there is a law against owning an Mp3 player too.. Sure doesn't scare Sony or Apple off for selling these things. Pretty much everything is illegal anyway.
They can be illegal somewhere else.
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- KVRAF
- 3139 posts since 6 Sep, 2002 from United Kingdom & Opinions Will Travel :O)
So in short existing clients who have not had their ClearShot account terminated these last few days – are OK!
BUT no NEW Free clearshot accounts will be issued in the future.
BUT no NEW Free clearshot accounts will be issued in the future.
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Mental Audio Deviations Mental Audio Deviations https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=43630
- KVRist
- 180 posts since 7 Oct, 2004 from NL
Because one stupid f**k broke a rule? I'm sorry to hear this.Spe3D wrote:So in short existing clients who have not had their ClearShot account terminated these last few days – are OK!
BUT no NEW Free clearshot accounts will be issued in the future.
Jaap
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- KVRAF
- 13444 posts since 14 Nov, 2000 from Hannover / Germany
It's really making me sad that people are (ab)using Peter's kickass service for illegal things.
Even if it wasn't intentional at all, that's still no excuse.
Everybody should be able to clear things out before posting or linking to them.
It's also perfectly clear that linking to illegal/uncleared stuff is just as wrong as posting things by yourself - I mean, why wouldn't such links (to warez or copyrighted material) be allowed at KVR either?
During the past months Peter has really been of immense help to a LOT of people. Just look at how quick it went to make the famous Maestro Grand gig-file available again - now everybody can have it for free without any arrangements to be made (sending chunks of it via mail etc), and I'm sure this has a potential to use up a LOT of bandwith.
The same goes for the SJ Orchestra (a really great soundfont for a freebie) I uploaded yesterday because quite some people missed it when it was posted here. Just a few minutes after I finished uploading Peter cleared out the link and stuff and everything was just fine.
Then, he's running the audioshot/s and auditorium sites to actually HELP musicians out. Quite a lot of people don't have their own webspace to post tunes and such and Peter's/Audioshot's appearance some time ago had made all their lives a LOT easier.
You/we should respect these efforts BIG f**king TIME!
Any terms of licenses and agreements should at least be read AND followed properly, not to bring this brave man into trouble!
Do you remember XOOM? It has been a VERY great free service a few years ago.
They allowed for all filetypes, direct linking and so on. All they asked for was a banner that you put on your site.
After a while some filetypes (MP3 and .exe, later on .zip as well) weren't allowed anymore. Later on filesize was limited too (to 1 MB, there goes your MP3...) and direct linking was disabled too.
Why? Because every dickhead thought he/she could abuse the XOOM services to post warez, uncleared material and pr0n there.
You don't want Audioshot/s to go the same route, do you?
Seriously, people such as Peter can't be praised enough and I can perfectly understand that he NEEDS to be all that strict when it comes to terms of agreements and so on. Because there will ALLWAYS be people abusing things (incidentally or not).
Just my 2 cents,
Sascha
Even if it wasn't intentional at all, that's still no excuse.
Everybody should be able to clear things out before posting or linking to them.
It's also perfectly clear that linking to illegal/uncleared stuff is just as wrong as posting things by yourself - I mean, why wouldn't such links (to warez or copyrighted material) be allowed at KVR either?
During the past months Peter has really been of immense help to a LOT of people. Just look at how quick it went to make the famous Maestro Grand gig-file available again - now everybody can have it for free without any arrangements to be made (sending chunks of it via mail etc), and I'm sure this has a potential to use up a LOT of bandwith.
The same goes for the SJ Orchestra (a really great soundfont for a freebie) I uploaded yesterday because quite some people missed it when it was posted here. Just a few minutes after I finished uploading Peter cleared out the link and stuff and everything was just fine.
Then, he's running the audioshot/s and auditorium sites to actually HELP musicians out. Quite a lot of people don't have their own webspace to post tunes and such and Peter's/Audioshot's appearance some time ago had made all their lives a LOT easier.
You/we should respect these efforts BIG f**king TIME!
Any terms of licenses and agreements should at least be read AND followed properly, not to bring this brave man into trouble!
Do you remember XOOM? It has been a VERY great free service a few years ago.
They allowed for all filetypes, direct linking and so on. All they asked for was a banner that you put on your site.
After a while some filetypes (MP3 and .exe, later on .zip as well) weren't allowed anymore. Later on filesize was limited too (to 1 MB, there goes your MP3...) and direct linking was disabled too.
Why? Because every dickhead thought he/she could abuse the XOOM services to post warez, uncleared material and pr0n there.
You don't want Audioshot/s to go the same route, do you?
Seriously, people such as Peter can't be praised enough and I can perfectly understand that he NEEDS to be all that strict when it comes to terms of agreements and so on. Because there will ALLWAYS be people abusing things (incidentally or not).
Just my 2 cents,
Sascha
There are 3 kinds of people:
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
Those who can do maths and those who can't.
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
What he said.Sascha Franck wrote: You/we should respect these efforts BIG f**king TIME!
Any terms of licenses and agreements should at least be read AND followed properly, not to bring this brave man into trouble!
Seriously, people such as Peter can't be praised enough and I can perfectly understand that he NEEDS to be all that strict when it comes to terms of agreements and so on. Because there will ALLWAYS be people abusing things (incidentally or not).
Just my 2 cents,
Sascha
I don't think that people realize that just because 'diggin the crates' is a perfectly normal thing to do in their world doesn't mean that it is legal or acceptable in all circumstances.
I mean I certainly don't care if you drink or smoke pot. But if you work in a drug treatment facility you can get fired for talking about it.
For every normal activity there is an appropriate time and place. And when a guy offers really kickass FREE hosting services to people who need them, this IS NOT the place to post links to sites of dubious legality.
No one is 'passing judgement' on those other sites or the people who set them up. No one is even talking about right and wrong. Its about LEGAL and ILLEGAL. And what is so frustrating is that the people doing the infringing won't be the ones to suffer. The guy offering the FREE HOSTING SERVICES will be the one to suffer.
Can we PLEASE avoid another tragedy of the commons here?
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- KVRAF
- 5703 posts since 8 Dec, 2004 from The Twin Cities
In the US there are 2 kinds of copyright that apply here: The copyright on the song itself (i.e. the words, melody, chords, etc.), and the copyright of the recorded performance.wojdude wrote:Is it the actualy "audio" thats the problem or the "idea"?
The majority of drum beats around are copied,they have to be, if every person laid claim to a drum beat we'd have none left.
Isnt taking something/a drum loop off vinyl the same as drawing the same drum pattern on a midi score editor? Who owns rights to what? Who owns copyright to the idea/the audio etc etc.
In fact i'll ask my law teacher next lesson, heh.
WoJ
You are right that it is pretty ridiculous to lay claim to a drum pattern in pop music. It is the RECORDING copyright that most people have to worry about. And for THAT copyright, even recordings of music that is clearly in the public domain (e.g. an old folk song) can be infringed.