This goes to the advantage of Midiworks. Why to set a high price when you can be competitive?Tingle wrote: a company has massive overheads compared to the 'one man band' which justifies at least in part their higher pricing.
Guitar players, The soundclick MP3 demo page got updated !
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- KVRian
- 1297 posts since 17 Aug, 2003 from Italy
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2054 posts since 3 Jun, 2001 from Not far from Australia
I think presets are made to represent a product...Vervil wrote:I must say that factory presets does not do justice to Amplitube and Guitar Rig, so it is not fair to compare them by listening to factory sounds.
People judge a amp or synth on its presets in the first place.
I'd say, I am a 85'to 90' guy, I guess thats why.Vervil wrote:
Distortion guitars have kind of 80's sound to them...
Good point!Vervil wrote:It would be nice if it would be possible to make it sound more aggressive and raw too, when it comes to hi gain sounds.
Ok, I was not sure if I add a 3rd amp stage to get that sound.
I see how I can add that without adding more knobs.
Thank you !Vervil wrote: I'll check it when demo comes out anyway.
Midiworks, if it is possible to save presets in demo version and if you like presets I have made for Amplitube (you can download them here at K-V-R, and listen to them here http://www.milking-rosewood.com/Audio/D ... Sounds.mp3), I'll gladly make some more presets for your plug-in, and demo for them, no problem.
DSP with attitude
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 2054 posts since 3 Jun, 2001 from Not far from Australia
Bogner makes great amps !CatBoy wrote:Well,alot would say 3500.00 for my Bogner head is outragous and no one would ever buy.
But, I did. hehe
The only thing was I could hear it before I bought it.
Good choise.
There are 4 people involved in this product by now,CatBoy wrote: Amplitube and Native Instruments have legit reasons for charging so much.
They have payroll to meet,buildings to pay rent on,accountants etc.
I see this as a "side-project" for you and not your actual income. Is this true?
it is NOT the one man band project anymore, that it was at the beginning.
At a certain point of the project, I needed to get
more people involved, to be able to put all the features into the amp I wanted.
Only because of this, the amp is getting a reality.
Edit: A "side-project", no, but there are 2 other VST products I am working on.
My actual income ?
Near zero income the last 3 years,
3 years, is the time I work on those projects now.
Crazy eh !?
I only live from my reserves since then.
Why so long ?
Because I want, when you go and spend your hard earned cash on my products,
you will get something outstanding that I am 100% happy with.
Untill that, there is no release.
Because of the reasons mentioned above,CatBoy wrote: I own a couple virtual amps already and wouldnt mind adding yours to the collection just because I've seen you put in the work at this forum over several months.
But, at 250.00 you would lose my support.
$99 sounds much more applicable IMHO
$99 is simply impossible, but we are discussing the price isue at the moment.
Yes, program change is no problem.CatBoy wrote: One question...is the amp midi capable?
Can you change presets via midi?
I did not add automation because I felt its not needed...
Ok, will add that to the most important knobs/buttons.
Thank you for your input !
DSP with attitude
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- KVRer
- 16 posts since 25 Oct, 2000 from France
I find it strange people seem not to be shocked by high prices when they're made by 'big' companies such as NI and IK. Of course such companies have more bills to pay at the end of the month, more people's wages to pay, buildings to clean etc.
But they have a big advantage in that their size and stength allows them to litteraly flood the market with their product by buying lots of ads in magazines, getting their products in stores and not just on the net. And usually at some point this size becomes a problem, because keeping track of your customers needs must be very difficult in this position.
I think maybe that's why they're exists some so-called 'boutique' gear manufacturers, usually very small companies, that allow themselves to charge ridiculous amounts of money for their stuff. I guess these companies manage to be successful because they provide an almost 1:1 relation with their customers, which allows them to know exactly what they want, put the money and research mostly into the final product and not marketing bull etc..
And these companies seem to have gained a lot of respect not only amongst people who buy their stuff but in the minds of people who can't afford or don't want to spend such crazy money on gear.
For my part, i'm never going to spend $250 on a VST amp sim when i can get a SansAmp for the same price (another story, mind you), but i don't understand why people are prepared to shell out $499 for Guitar rig of which maybe 10% (just making this figure up of course goes
) to R&D and not be prepared to spend half that price on an amp where most of this will go into the development of the amp itself.
I believe pioneers should be rewarded for their efforts, but maybe i'm a dreamer ?
To conclude, i mostly agree with people that suggested lowering the price would be a clever commercial move, because it's
a) the company's first product, if the product is good and relatively cheap, it would give Midworks a very good reputation (see Ohmforce)
b) a product that is only available on the net, marketing resources are limited and so the number of potential buyers is limited. A low price would mean more potential buyers
c) software that can be warezed and will be a lot if it's too expensive
Still, it must be a very difficult decision to fix the price, with so many unknown factors involved.
I find that people saying 'you're making this in your garage, you're only one person' are being condescendant to Midiworks, and that's a blatant move to try and haggle on the price.
Why don't these people go to NI and IK tell them 'hey, you big fat capitalist bastards, why don't you give us more for our money instead of spending it on mareketing bull ?' Maybe because they have no chance to be listened to by them, so they come here instead !
Anyway, best of luck with the launch of your plug, and don't forget to make a demo version !
But they have a big advantage in that their size and stength allows them to litteraly flood the market with their product by buying lots of ads in magazines, getting their products in stores and not just on the net. And usually at some point this size becomes a problem, because keeping track of your customers needs must be very difficult in this position.
I think maybe that's why they're exists some so-called 'boutique' gear manufacturers, usually very small companies, that allow themselves to charge ridiculous amounts of money for their stuff. I guess these companies manage to be successful because they provide an almost 1:1 relation with their customers, which allows them to know exactly what they want, put the money and research mostly into the final product and not marketing bull etc..
And these companies seem to have gained a lot of respect not only amongst people who buy their stuff but in the minds of people who can't afford or don't want to spend such crazy money on gear.
For my part, i'm never going to spend $250 on a VST amp sim when i can get a SansAmp for the same price (another story, mind you), but i don't understand why people are prepared to shell out $499 for Guitar rig of which maybe 10% (just making this figure up of course goes
) to R&D and not be prepared to spend half that price on an amp where most of this will go into the development of the amp itself.I believe pioneers should be rewarded for their efforts, but maybe i'm a dreamer ?
To conclude, i mostly agree with people that suggested lowering the price would be a clever commercial move, because it's
a) the company's first product, if the product is good and relatively cheap, it would give Midworks a very good reputation (see Ohmforce)
b) a product that is only available on the net, marketing resources are limited and so the number of potential buyers is limited. A low price would mean more potential buyers
c) software that can be warezed and will be a lot if it's too expensive
Still, it must be a very difficult decision to fix the price, with so many unknown factors involved.
I find that people saying 'you're making this in your garage, you're only one person' are being condescendant to Midiworks, and that's a blatant move to try and haggle on the price.
Why don't these people go to NI and IK tell them 'hey, you big fat capitalist bastards, why don't you give us more for our money instead of spending it on mareketing bull ?' Maybe because they have no chance to be listened to by them, so they come here instead !
Anyway, best of luck with the launch of your plug, and don't forget to make a demo version !
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- KVRist
- 65 posts since 29 Jan, 2005
but it's so easy, i will pay whatever price asked if i can afford it, if the product is just as good or better then anything else i can get for the same price, hw or sw.
by better i mean, better sound, more for the buck in general or just so much more practical i can take a hit on the sound just for the comfy feeling.
if i find somethign i like better that is cheaper, i get that isntead.
by better i mean, better sound, more for the buck in general or just so much more practical i can take a hit on the sound just for the comfy feeling.
if i find somethign i like better that is cheaper, i get that isntead.
Last edited by b2d on Tue Mar 01, 2005 1:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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- KVRist
- 206 posts since 13 Mar, 2002 from Zagreb, Croatia
Hey Midiworks,
Long time ago I was aking you whether your ampsim can achieve that high gain "Rammstein" (or any trash/nu/hardcore) sound (think chugga-chugga sound). Maybe you can answer me now.
Long time ago I was aking you whether your ampsim can achieve that high gain "Rammstein" (or any trash/nu/hardcore) sound (think chugga-chugga sound). Maybe you can answer me now.
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championrabbit championrabbit https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=53166
- KVRian
- 559 posts since 30 Dec, 2004
That's simply nonsense.Midiworks wrote: $99 is simply impossible, but we are discussing the price isue at the moment.
What is 'impossible' is running a business without sales.
Let me explain.
Say I make poo-cake. It costs me £5 to make each poo-cake, and I put them on sale for £15.
Nobody buys then.
I am sad.
I ask some friends what they would pay for poo-cakes and they say £4.
I say "that's impossible!" and close my business.
I cannot run a business selling things at less than cost.
Instead I start a business selling names for people's kids!!
It is called "Poo-Names Inc"
It costs me 5 minutes of time to make a name, and I charge £15 per name.
Nobody buys them and I am sad.
I ask my friends what they would pay for one of my Poo-Names.
£4 they say.
This time it is NOT impossible since my costs for each item sold (each name) are almost non-existent!!
I change my pricing to £3.50 and I have MANY customers!!
I am rich!!
I am happy!!
See?
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- KVRian
- 1297 posts since 17 Aug, 2003 from Italy
Cleverchampionrabbit wrote: [...]
Instead I start a business selling names for people's kids!!
It is called "Poo-Names Inc"
[...]
I am rich!!
I am happy!!
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- KVRAF
- 25018 posts since 12 Jul, 2003 from West Caprazumia
fantastic example!!!championrabbit wrote:That's simply nonsense.Midiworks wrote: $99 is simply impossible, but we are discussing the price isue at the moment.
What is 'impossible' is running a business without sales.
Let me explain.
Say I make poo-cake. It costs me £5 to make each poo-cake, and I put them on sale for £15.
Nobody buys then.
I am sad.
I ask some friends what they would pay for poo-cakes and they say £4.
I say "that's impossible!" and close my business.
I cannot run a business selling things at less than cost.
Instead I start a business selling names for people's kids!!
It is called "Poo-Names Inc"
It costs me 5 minutes of time to make a name, and I charge £15 per name.
Nobody buys them and I am sad.
I ask my friends what they would pay for one of my Poo-Names.
£4 they say.
This time it is NOT impossible since my costs for each item sold (each name) are almost non-existent!!
I change my pricing to £3.50 and I have MANY customers!!
I am rich!!
I am happy!!
See?
and so true!
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Stupid American Pig Stupid American Pig https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=4753 - KVRAF
- 7065 posts since 25 Nov, 2002 from not sure
what a poo example of bizness sense...championrabbit wrote:That's simply nonsense.Midiworks wrote: $99 is simply impossible, but we are discussing the price isue at the moment.
What is 'impossible' is running a business without sales.
Let me explain.
Say I make poo-cake. It costs me £5 to make each poo-cake, and I put them on sale for £15.
Nobody buys then.
I am sad.
I ask some friends what they would pay for poo-cakes and they say £4.
I say "that's impossible!" and close my business.
I cannot run a business selling things at less than cost.
Instead I start a business selling names for people's kids!!
It is called "Poo-Names Inc"
It costs me 5 minutes of time to make a name, and I charge £15 per name.
Nobody buys them and I am sad.
I ask my friends what they would pay for one of my Poo-Names.
£4 they say.
This time it is NOT impossible since my costs for each item sold (each name) are almost non-existent!!
I change my pricing to £3.50 and I have MANY customers!!
I am rich!!
I am happy!!
See?
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- KVRist
- 402 posts since 15 Oct, 2004 from Breizh (Brittany), Europe
I'm looking for an affordable, HUGE Mesa like hi-gain amp-sim. For now on, I've been using GreenMachine which is nice but not exactly what I'd want to hear (in term of gain). I'll never be a IK or NI client, not that I can't afford it but I have a family and many other things to do with this money. So, it is pretty simple : you say your amp can compete with Amplitube, then at something around 80$ (100$ max !!!) you have a new customer. Priced at 250$, you haven't. I think I'm not the only one in this case.
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- KVRist
- 488 posts since 2 Mar, 2004
This would make an interesting business case for a product development and marketing course.
Championrabbit's example is actually pretty good, in that it demonstrates the importance of generating a demand for a product.
When bringing a poduct to market its really important that you understand the market potential. In determining your market potential its important to understand your target market(s) and who your competition is in these markets. Then you need to develop a strategy that moves that target away from your competetive products and attracts them to yours.
Some companies will point to their competitors' weaknesses. Don't do this as it can alienate a significant portion of your target market. Promote your products strengths.
As has already been mentioned, larger companeies can have an extensive infrastructure to support so the costs, whether justified or nor not from a consumer perspective, are justified from a corporate perspective. The bottom line here is that consumers are willing to spend the amount asked as they are comfortable with the company.
The benefit a new company has is that they do not have to support that large infrastructure, so they should be able to bring a product to market faster and a substantially better price. If the product is that good, and gains market share quickly, it can force other companies to bring their prices down to compete. This is good all around for consumers, and as this new company wins market share they can introduce new products with better margins or add-ons to the existing.
The key is to find the right balance of product capability and price to attract new consumers or move consumers from competitive products.
Reputation has a lot to do with consumer comfort and both companies have a solid reputation in this industry. The new company has to find a way to get product to consumers without havin reputation to back them. The proof is in the pudding, and attracting a large of consumers early and providing excellent service is a sure way to build the reputation.
Back to pricing, I have absolutely no idea what the right price is but based on the feedback here I would say $250 for a new product that no one has heard outside of some mp3 demos is too much. If you want a better idea on price, put out a limited release to some key people and let them tell you if it is worth what you think it is. I think you will get some good honest feedback from the group at kvr. With the demo's that you can get from NI, IK and Izotope it wouldn't be difficult to compare.
Right now I'm in the market for an amp sim and if I were purchasing I would going the Izotope route. It's my opinion that the product is at least as good as Guitar Rig or Amplitube and it's half the price. For me to consider buynig your product that's the product you have to beat.
It sounds like you have a lot of confidence with your product. That's good but don't blow its potential by not doing a more comprehenisve market analysis and pricing the produce appropriately to that market. If the bottom line cost is $250 and the market isn't prepared to pay that, you've been wasting your time regardless how good your product is.
Cheers...
Championrabbit's example is actually pretty good, in that it demonstrates the importance of generating a demand for a product.
When bringing a poduct to market its really important that you understand the market potential. In determining your market potential its important to understand your target market(s) and who your competition is in these markets. Then you need to develop a strategy that moves that target away from your competetive products and attracts them to yours.
Some companies will point to their competitors' weaknesses. Don't do this as it can alienate a significant portion of your target market. Promote your products strengths.
As has already been mentioned, larger companeies can have an extensive infrastructure to support so the costs, whether justified or nor not from a consumer perspective, are justified from a corporate perspective. The bottom line here is that consumers are willing to spend the amount asked as they are comfortable with the company.
The benefit a new company has is that they do not have to support that large infrastructure, so they should be able to bring a product to market faster and a substantially better price. If the product is that good, and gains market share quickly, it can force other companies to bring their prices down to compete. This is good all around for consumers, and as this new company wins market share they can introduce new products with better margins or add-ons to the existing.
The key is to find the right balance of product capability and price to attract new consumers or move consumers from competitive products.
Reputation has a lot to do with consumer comfort and both companies have a solid reputation in this industry. The new company has to find a way to get product to consumers without havin reputation to back them. The proof is in the pudding, and attracting a large of consumers early and providing excellent service is a sure way to build the reputation.
Back to pricing, I have absolutely no idea what the right price is but based on the feedback here I would say $250 for a new product that no one has heard outside of some mp3 demos is too much. If you want a better idea on price, put out a limited release to some key people and let them tell you if it is worth what you think it is. I think you will get some good honest feedback from the group at kvr. With the demo's that you can get from NI, IK and Izotope it wouldn't be difficult to compare.
Right now I'm in the market for an amp sim and if I were purchasing I would going the Izotope route. It's my opinion that the product is at least as good as Guitar Rig or Amplitube and it's half the price. For me to consider buynig your product that's the product you have to beat.
It sounds like you have a lot of confidence with your product. That's good but don't blow its potential by not doing a more comprehenisve market analysis and pricing the produce appropriately to that market. If the bottom line cost is $250 and the market isn't prepared to pay that, you've been wasting your time regardless how good your product is.
Cheers...
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championrabbit championrabbit https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=53166
- KVRian
- 559 posts since 30 Dec, 2004
Midiworks has some excellent (and free) customer research RIGHT HERE in this thread.
It is safe to assume that 99% of people in this thread are potential customers.
But how many of these customers has made it know that they are willing to pay $250?
Very few.
How many are willing to pay $50?
Plenty.
Are more than 5 times the number willing to pay $250 willing to pay $50?
So it would seem.
Thus (since 'shipping') 5 copies of this product costs NO MORE than shipping 1 copy, it would be fairly safe to assume that the correct pricing is far closer to $50 than $250.
Result?
Happy customers.
More customers.
More money for Midiworks.
Happy Midiworks.
It is safe to assume that 99% of people in this thread are potential customers.
But how many of these customers has made it know that they are willing to pay $250?
Very few.
How many are willing to pay $50?
Plenty.
Are more than 5 times the number willing to pay $250 willing to pay $50?
So it would seem.
Thus (since 'shipping') 5 copies of this product costs NO MORE than shipping 1 copy, it would be fairly safe to assume that the correct pricing is far closer to $50 than $250.
Result?
Happy customers.
More customers.
More money for Midiworks.
Happy Midiworks.
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- KVRist
- 488 posts since 2 Mar, 2004
I agree...championrabbit wrote:Midiworks has some excellent (and free) customer research RIGHT HERE in this thread.
It is safe to assume that 99% of people in this thread are potential customers.
But how many of these customers has made it know that they are willing to pay $250?
Very few.
How many are willing to pay $50?
Plenty.
Are more than 5 times the number willing to pay $250 willing to pay $50?
So it would seem.
Thus (since 'shipping') 5 copies of this product costs NO MORE than shipping 1 copy, it would be fairly safe to assume that the correct pricing is far closer to $50 than $250.
Result?
Happy customers.
More customers.
More money for Midiworks.
Happy Midiworks.
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- KVRist
- 402 posts since 15 Oct, 2004 from Breizh (Brittany), Europe
Couldn't agree more...