Diva Vs. Real Analog

[layzer]

as much as i love the convenience of vst synths, they just don't have the dense, beefy, organic low end of a real analog.

take this comparison: the opx hits the low frequency but it sounds thin compared to the original
played on a moog modular.

[Examigan]

as much as i love the convenience of vst synths, they just don't have the dense, beefy, organic low end of a real analog.

take this comparison: the opx hits the low frequency but it sounds thin compared to the original
played on a moog modular.

To me it sounds like they added some sort of chorus (or something else) to the sound on the original version. The OP-X preset is very similar, and I think Peter is great at getting those famous sounds.

[Z1202]

one softsynth

Which one ?
Reaktor ?

I suppose you were kidding, right? Reaktor doesn't have its own sound or any other "fixed" solutions which characterize a synth. But it's made in Reaktor. Could have been made in C++ instead, though. That's beyond the point.

[Z1202]

I guess it's much easier to notice the difference, if you're doing your own sounddesign while making a song, rather than using presets. Then you'll notice that certain types of sound are impossible to get, or possible only with tons of workarounds (and still not sounding even close to convincing) with most of the softsynths. Some sounds are probably still impossible.

Edit: another problem which often occurs with even relatively good sounding softsynths is that you have to use the fine-tuning mode (usually with a Shift) of the knobs to hit a tiny sweet spot, where the sound is acceptable. Not having to do that is a sign of a good quality design. The very same problem often makes it impossible to automate the preset's parameters because you immediately lose this tiny sweet spot. So, you also have less options to make the sound organically live.

[IncarnateX]

Whether software or hardware freaks, you guys are so lucky to have your preferences so fixed and straightforward. I contrast, I change my preferences once a week and sometimes on a daily basis. If you are talking about plasticity of the brain, you are talking about me. For instance I have been on software since about 2006 and opened threads about the superior convenience of software and the sufficiency of emulations. However, this year I just got enough all of a sudden, and took all my hardware down from the attic, sold some, and made me a 100% PC free hardware studio with Roland MC909 as base. Don't know about you, but in the end I need variation to get my musical spirit fueled and thus My preferences change. One period it is software, another hardware, one it is digital, another analog. Unfortunately this phenomenon of habitutation also fuels my GAS and this is where you guys are more lucky, because variation costs.

[wagtunes]

To me no one has yet established the fact that hardware synths sound better. Ok different I'll give you that even if the difference is often tiny but better ? No.

https://soundcloud.com/studio-electronics/omega-man

Beat it. Just beat it.

Let me start off by saying that I own hardware (going all the way back to 1979) and software. So I'm not a "fanboy" in either direction. The only reason I don't use my hardware anymore is because of lack of space and convenience of software.

Having said that, if you put me up against a stone wall with a gun to my head and said to me "Hardware or software, guess wrong and I blow your brains out" I honestly couldn't say with 100% certainty that what I just heard was hardware. Not with some of the great sounding tracks I've heard JUST with soft synths.

I can't even tell you what hardware synths those were though I think I hear a Jupiter in there somewhere. It's either that or a Prophet. Not entirely sure. The lead at around 4 minutes sounded like a Moog of some kind but again, not 100% sure.

So what exactly am I supposed to be hearing that's supposed to make me go "OMG that's hardware hands down and absolutely blows away everything I've ever heard come out of a PC" because I'm not hearing it.

Maybe my ears are just bad. It's quite possible. I'm 57 years old and my upper register is pretty well shot to hell. But I'd like to think I'm not so far gone that I can't tell "real" quality from a "pretender."

My 2 cents for whatever they're worth.

PS - Track sounded great. Loved it.

It's the Studio Electronics Omega 8, and it's probably using filters based on the Moog, SEM, maybe ARP and 303. I know Studio Electronics also makes filters based on the CS80 and Korg analogs as well, not sure what they used in that track, but that's why it sounds like a lot of different synths.

Maybe you're high frequency hearing is shot. Listen to any of the tracks on the Studio Electronics Soundcloud page. I think the difference between what comes out of them and what you can get form software is pretty vast.

Well, whatever the reason is, I don't hear a drastic difference, if any at all. So why would I spend the extra money, take up the extra space, put up with the costly repairs and generally make more work for myself by using Analog synths?

And none of that even takes into consideration that none of the synths I have are MIDI compatible which means I would have to play them live through my Steinberg UR28M which means I'm limited by my own playing ability which leaves a lot to be desired.

In short, hardware just isn't an option for me even if it did sound better to my ears, which it doesn't.

And again, after I've made the music, who on the listening end (your casual non musician listener) is going to really hear my music and say to themselves "That sounds like crap because he's using software synths?"

Again, I have heard a ton of great music made purely with software.

Bottom Line: That's good enough for me.

[bmrzycki]

I think this is one of the things I have a lot of trouble grasping. We're making art not taking part in some sort of exercise in efficiency. Workflow/efficiency/ease of use - these are all things that have become part of the lingo since software took over and I'm sure that it affects the creative mindset in a very negative way. There's no way I would choose convenience over the actual sound of my art - the actual sound being the only part of my art that the listener experiences.

Some painters prefer to spend the time to prep and stretch their own canvas. Others prefer to pre-purchase them or (if they're well-off) have an assistant do it. Some painters prefer to buy primary oil colors and mix while painting. Some prefer to pre-purchase several colors. Some painters prefer watercolors, others prefer acrylic. Some prefer natural brushes and others prefer nylon.

Not once did I say one preference was better or worse or positive or negative.

Thankfully you don't get to decide, for me, the workflow that I feel is the most productive and most comfortable. I find interfacing with hardware frustrating and time-consuming and takes me out of the creative mindset because I have to deal with what I feel is pointless minutiae.

Even so, I won't call that same hardware workflow negative for you. If you'd extend me the same courtesy and respect to my preferred software workflow I think forums like kvr would be a better place. I'm not you and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to figure out why I (or others like me) like something that you don't. The beauty of the world in its diversity and those differences make humanity better as a whole.

[Mutant]

take this comparison: the opx hits the low frequency but it sounds thin compared to the original
played on a moog modular.

Pretty sure i hear some kind of chorus effect on the original bass.
I prefer VA bass and analog lead.

[wagtunes]

Okay, I checked out the Omega 8. I remember now listening to demos of this on YouTube a while back.



Yeah, sounds amazing. The filters are probably the best I've heard. Closest thing to them, IMO, are the Diva and Korg MS-20 Legacy synth.

Yes, I admit it. This beats everything I own sound wise to my ears.

It's also 5 grand. That's more money than my PC and almost every plug I've purchased combined.

No thanks. What I have is good enough.

[ImNotDedYet]

The biggest advantage to me for hardware is, as others have mentioned - it improves my creativity. I can't count how many times I've found "happy accidents" using hardware that I somehow incorporate into my sound at some point - usually via automation. It's just so much easier for me to dial in a sound using soft synths for some reason that I often don't mess around with the "knobs" to find those happy accidents.

Another advantage of hardware to software for me is I'm more apt to "play" the knobs as I print the song which gives the track a feeling that's much more organic. For soft synths I often just create a fairly standard automation path that's not nearly as organic. (or fun IMO)

Someone already mentioned not using CPU for hardware which is a good point, and a funny one for me. So many of the complaints for Diva are that it's so CPU intensive on Divine mode - one of the reasons I held out for so long before finally buying it. And, it can be inconvenient to "print" or freeze a track when you're so accustomed to working ITB. But it's really not that big of a deal for hybrid or OTB people because they're so used to it. Which brings me to a very important point - at least for me. Printing/freezing a track causes me to commit to that sound, which removes tinkering later on in the sound. There's a youtube channel called MixBusTV, which is one of my favorite channels - dude's a fantastic mixer and explains some really great mixing concepts. And he has a video called something like get away from f**karounditis - basically he says to commit to a single EQ and compressor or channel strip for a track and just go from there. Same concept when you print a track.

The biggest advantage for soft synths for me is ease of use and getting a decent sound quickly. I'll oftentimes pop a soft synth because I'm screwing around just to get the notes in place and wind up keeping that sound because it's "good enough," which could also be a disadvantage I suppose.

And obviously, there are boatloads of presets available for soft synths vs. hardware which could be an advantage for many.

Could I tell the difference in a mix between hardware and a soft VA? Probably not. Hell, my ears are just getting to the point where I feel like I somewhat have a clue when mixing, let alone hearing the subtleties that may still exist between the two in a mix.

[layzer]

Okay, I checked out the Omega 8. I remember now listening to demos of this on YouTube a while back.



Yeah, sounds amazing. The filters are probably the best I've heard. Closest thing to them, IMO, are the Diva and Korg MS-20 Legacy synth.

Yes, I admit it. This beats everything I own sound wise to my ears.

It's also 5 grand. That's more money than my PC and almost every plug I've purchased combined.

No thanks. What I have is good enough.

thats a gorgeous modular there... it sounds amazing when he plays the low notes at 2:40. creamy!

[do_androids_dream]

I think this is one of the things I have a lot of trouble grasping. We're making art not taking part in some sort of exercise in efficiency. Workflow/efficiency/ease of use - these are all things that have become part of the lingo since software took over and I'm sure that it affects the creative mindset in a very negative way. There's no way I would choose convenience over the actual sound of my art - the actual sound being the only part of my art that the listener experiences.

Some painters prefer to spend the time to prep and stretch their own canvas. Others prefer to pre-purchase them or (if they're well-off) have an assistant do it. Some painters prefer to buy primary oil colors and mix while painting. Some prefer to pre-purchase several colors. Some painters prefer watercolors, others prefer acrylic. Some prefer natural brushes and others prefer nylon.

Not once did I say one preference was better or worse or positive or negative.

Thankfully you don't get to decide, for me, the workflow that I feel is the most productive and most comfortable. I find interfacing with hardware frustrating and time-consuming and takes me out of the creative mindset because I have to deal with what I feel is pointless minutiae.

Even so, I won't call that same hardware workflow negative for you. If you'd extend me the same courtesy and respect to my preferred software workflow I think forums like kvr would be a better place. I'm not you and I'd appreciate it if you'd stop trying to figure out why I (or others like me) like something that you don't. The beauty of the world in its diversity and those differences make humanity better as a whole.

I'm sorry if I've managed to offend you. But, it is quite a powerful statement that I felt compelled to respond to as you said it in a public forum - you're basically saying that the convenience of your workflow is more important than the sound of your music. That is a pretty big thing.

Edit - sorry, I'm probably taking it too seriously - I tend to overthink things, go to deep profound levels all too easily lol. Yes, when you factor in that the hardware gets in the way of your creativity ('frustrating and time-consuming') then that's different. I'm just used to the idea of suffering for ones art lol.

[wagtunes]

Played my Diva along with this to see how they'd sound together.



Naturally without actually being able to mix the Dive in with the recording so it fit perfectly, it wasn't perfect. But I didn't hear any clash in quality that would force me to toss Diva out of the mix. In fact, they sounded pretty good together and if I had taken more time to either find or design just the right patch...

Differences? Yes. I can now hear them.

But worlds apart "Soft synths are rubbish?"

No. They're perfectly usable for professional purposes.

[bmrzycki]

I'm sorry if I've managed to offend you. But, it is quite a powerful statement that I felt compelled to respond to as you said it in a public forum - you're basically saying that the convenience of your workflow is more important than the sound of your music. That is a pretty big thing.

Edit - sorry, I'm probably taking it too seriously - I tend to overthink things, go to deep profound levels all too easily lol. Yes, when you factor in that the hardware gets in the way of your creativity ('frustrating and time-consuming') then that's different. I'm just used to the idea of suffering for ones art lol.

No need to apologize my friend as no offense was taken. I just felt that an equally strong response was needed to your claim. My whole point was there is no right way to make music, regardless of medium. What matters is the end result and the experience in the moment. If hardware does that for you then excellent! It does the exact opposite for me and in the end software gets me to the end goal of creativity while hardware makes me feel like I'm always prepping.

It's wonderful that we can even have such choice.

[aciddose]

Whether software or hardware freaks, you guys are so lucky to have your preferences so fixed and straightforward. I contrast, I change my preferences once a week and sometimes on a daily basis. If you are talking about plasticity of the brain, you are talking about me.

I think we're exactly the same in this respect. I haven't pulled out my analogs or my Rhodes for over a year. I feel like it's a pain to connect the cables, the console, the combo amp and so on... not to mention lift the Rhodes!

Yet my position one day will just change. I'll connect a portable combo amp where I don't need to carry anything around and have a short play. I'll realize "wow, I forgot how awesome this is!"

I'll drag everything back next to the DAW, connect it and test it comparing to the plugins I've been using. No comparison. It isn't "better", it's just so radically different.

That sort of change or difference is inspiring. It makes me want to compose or mix a track just to put these instruments to use. I suddenly just want to sit down and play the Rhodes for no reason other than I see the thing, it becomes like an addiction and I'm drawn to it. You know those times you have not much to do, and you might start wasting time online (KVR!) or reading the news, watching TV or whatever; These times I have an irresistible urge to play one of these instruments.

Now I'm certain given a few weeks or months I'll have everything packed away again in the road cases shoved in a closet somewhere and I'll be remembering how amazing it is to do huge wide unisons or bizarre additive sounds in a plugin.

Or maybe I'll be on the DX7, or the D50, or the piano... Who knows?

People may have their reasons they feel they can't cope with all this gear. It takes up space. I hate huge keyboards like the Junos or Jupiters for this reason, the DX7 feels like it weighs a ton!

Still though I can't see myself just giving them up and making the excuse that software comes "close enough for rock&roll". That would be denial and justification for a decision I was forced to make because I didn't have the means to achieve what I really wanted.

Fortunately I own a closet. I can throw that stuff in there.