another half year later
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- KVRist
- 230 posts since 25 Nov, 2004
I just don't get the development philosophy that says "let's keep our users/fans in the dark about everything to do with the software, bug fixes small (color editor) and large (rendering bug), until we decide to offer an actual point release". I know Beno keeps everyone informed ("something's coming soon"), but that's not the same. He seems to do that out of desire to quench the flames of forum fire, not as company policy. It's not just Mackie, however, it's common practice, so I guess it's grin and bear it, it ain't about to change.
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Fair enough, and I definitely don't speak for Mackie, but I personally don't get the USER philosophy that says, "update me daily about every little change or I'm going to think you're slacking off." Now I know that's not what you PERSONALLY are saying, and you acknowledge that it's common practice for companies to not give daily updates. But I think that "leaving in the dark" is too strong a phrase for what is common practice in the industry. It's more by necessity than by design, I would think.
Now, I KNOW this is a slightly flawed example because software development is a bit different than hardware development, but is it common for people to demand from, for example, AMD processors, regular updates on the progress they're making for their next line of chips? We're all assured that they're continuing development; and even if they folded, those of us with AMD chips in their machines still know that our computers will continue working tomorrow.
It's the information age that's causing this (in my opinion) rabid addiction to frantic dissemination of information. Without this forum and the internet in general, did we always expect frequent updates with our software? I remember buying DOS 5.x and not really expecting or understanding that there would even BE a DOS 6.x sometime in the future. I remember buying games for the C64 that had bugs, and never expecting the manufacturer to release patches.
I don't know that owners of Microsoft Word expect daily reports on bugfixes and improvements...? I sure don't.
So, while you find it strange that we're not getting daily updates and bugfixes, I personally find it strange that anyone could expect such a thing!
On the flipside, because we live in a different age, there should be movement forward. It'd be cool if there were more bleeding-edge stuff. But then the forum would be riddled with (as it is for the eXT forum) bug-reports and feature-requests that result in a fairly untidy conglomerate of wants, needs, and plain ol' errors. I'd rather more time between stable releases.
Greg
Now, I KNOW this is a slightly flawed example because software development is a bit different than hardware development, but is it common for people to demand from, for example, AMD processors, regular updates on the progress they're making for their next line of chips? We're all assured that they're continuing development; and even if they folded, those of us with AMD chips in their machines still know that our computers will continue working tomorrow.
It's the information age that's causing this (in my opinion) rabid addiction to frantic dissemination of information. Without this forum and the internet in general, did we always expect frequent updates with our software? I remember buying DOS 5.x and not really expecting or understanding that there would even BE a DOS 6.x sometime in the future. I remember buying games for the C64 that had bugs, and never expecting the manufacturer to release patches.
I don't know that owners of Microsoft Word expect daily reports on bugfixes and improvements...? I sure don't.So, while you find it strange that we're not getting daily updates and bugfixes, I personally find it strange that anyone could expect such a thing!
On the flipside, because we live in a different age, there should be movement forward. It'd be cool if there were more bleeding-edge stuff. But then the forum would be riddled with (as it is for the eXT forum) bug-reports and feature-requests that result in a fairly untidy conglomerate of wants, needs, and plain ol' errors. I'd rather more time between stable releases.
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
I won't say that Mackie has been totally up front. I agree that there could be a bit more info given, like what is currently being addressed. And I do honestly wish there would be a couple more releases than there have been. However, I'm not unfair about it. I do have my problems with Tracktion, but I don't mention them because it must be hard for Beno to deal with it all when he's not really allowed to say anything.
I'm just willing to wait, knowing that Jules is doing what he can. Cut come slack. And be polite if you have a request.
Koolkeys
I'm just willing to wait, knowing that Jules is doing what he can. Cut come slack. And be polite if you have a request.
Koolkeys
My host is better than your host
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
I would say more than anything that they just need a manager of some sort to give the go-ahead and a week's wages (here's the kicker, no? Money and time?) to get someone to organize a proper system.
It seems to me (and this is just a guess) that they're not hiding anything; they just don't have a system in place for dealing with software concerns (being new to the software game) and haven't invested in setting up an infrastructure for it yet.
- It's impossible to have expected such a system to already be in place
- In order for such a system to be implemented, time and resources must be allocated
- Without the right person making the right decision, such a system stays in limbo
- With the wrong person making the wrong decision, such a system could be seen as "unecessary" to the business plan.
So, I don't think it's anything nefarious. Nothing's been hidden in a "shady" way, and nobody at Mackie has intentionally tried to slight anybody. But since companies are, ultimately, run by people, it still takes the right people at the right time with the right resources and authority to make anything happen.
Perhaps in time this will change. In the meantime, I'm rather excited about a song I've been working on with 2 other Tracktioneers, so all's going very well in Tracktion-land for me. 
It seems to me (and this is just a guess) that they're not hiding anything; they just don't have a system in place for dealing with software concerns (being new to the software game) and haven't invested in setting up an infrastructure for it yet.
- It's impossible to have expected such a system to already be in place
- In order for such a system to be implemented, time and resources must be allocated
- Without the right person making the right decision, such a system stays in limbo
- With the wrong person making the wrong decision, such a system could be seen as "unecessary" to the business plan.
So, I don't think it's anything nefarious. Nothing's been hidden in a "shady" way, and nobody at Mackie has intentionally tried to slight anybody. But since companies are, ultimately, run by people, it still takes the right people at the right time with the right resources and authority to make anything happen.
Perhaps in time this will change.
In the meantime, I'm rather excited about a song I've been working on with 2 other Tracktioneers, so all's going very well in Tracktion-land for me. -
- KVRAF
- 3971 posts since 19 Apr, 2005 from Brissie
Yes, and frankly, I think that's the difference, LM. For those of use who AREN'T experiencing trouble-free use, it's a bit of a different story... would be nice to know that someone's hearing us.
Mind you, I've only just started using Tracktion, so I'm barely counting myself in that list - just empathising.
Mind you, I've only just started using Tracktion, so I'm barely counting myself in that list - just empathising.
I've joined Lurkers Anonymous.
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- KVRAF
- 1615 posts since 28 Mar, 2005
I think there should be a disctinction drawn between bugfixes and new features. Bug fixes should be the priority because they just give us the functionality that we have already paid for. And there is no reason to bundle them with improvements or new features. They should just be released as soon as they are tested. Here I think Mackie have been a little poky.
New features and enhancements though don't need to come so quickly. In fact fcor those of us who are doing a lot of work it can be a distraction to learn new features etc etc. So I think the pace there can be slower - once or twice a year is great. I don't fault Mackie here.
Of course paid upgrades should be least frequent ...
New features and enhancements though don't need to come so quickly. In fact fcor those of us who are doing a lot of work it can be a distraction to learn new features etc etc. So I think the pace there can be slower - once or twice a year is great. I don't fault Mackie here.
Of course paid upgrades should be least frequent ...
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- KVRian
- 1272 posts since 11 Apr, 2002 from Nashville, TN
I think it would be great and easy to understand if Tracktion released a monthly update full of bug fixes and new features. For the sake of clarity - please release a new update now called 2.0.9 so we can be in sync with the months of the year. Then next month release 2.0.10. Starting at the beginning of next year move up to 2.1.1 and continue with the same process. At the end of the 10 years we could move up to Tracktion 3 and be required to pay another $20 update.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
i think we also need to make a distinction between ...
> new bugs
> known bugs
> known bugs that are being investigated
> known bugs that are being fixed
> reported / confirmed bugs that are fixed for the next point release
slainte rob
> new bugs
> known bugs
> known bugs that are being investigated
> known bugs that are being fixed
> reported / confirmed bugs that are fixed for the next point release
slainte
rob-
- KVRAF
- 4878 posts since 13 Jun, 2002 from Montreal
I'm just waiting for "Tracktion for Dummies" to come out. I have started 20 project in Tracktion, but they were finished elsewhere. 
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
What's holding you up, Gordon? It's not like eXT where you're stuck going "now what the hell do I do?" You just mix and press "render".
Greg
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 4878 posts since 13 Jun, 2002 from Montreal
I have no problem rendering - where did i write that? I do find working in T2 very cumbersome though. The midi editing is better in T2, but not nearly as good as FLS, eXT or Sonar. I always give up half way with T2- either from excessive fussing with racks of multi-out VST's or with the strange way T2 zooms in and out. I get much futher in eXT that in T2. I have about 10 eXT projects in final stages.What's holding you up, Gordon? It's not like eXT where you're stuck going "now what the hell do I do?" You just mix and press "render".
Greg
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
You didn't say anything about render, I just thought you meant you had a bunch of nearly-finished tracks. So I couldn't figure out what the 'final' hold-up would have been.
I always forget that you're a MIDI dude. I don't use enough MIDI to need anything beyond what Tracktion offers.
As for the Racks and multi-outs, a simple solution is to not play with the toys so much and just get to the tracks.
Greg
I always forget that you're a MIDI dude. I don't use enough MIDI to need anything beyond what Tracktion offers.
As for the Racks and multi-outs, a simple solution is to not play with the toys so much and just get to the tracks.
Greg
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original flipper original flipper https://www.kvraudio.com/forum/memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=8999
- KVRAF
- 2544 posts since 14 Sep, 2003 from Essex
HI
I have not been following trends/issues here so I might be wrong about a few things!
I like the way that Jorgen of XT tends to post a list of 'work to do' every time he releases an update - the list can change to include FR's that have a heavy request.
I know with some bigger developers that have a multiple development team rather than a single developer (Logic, Cubase and Sonar come to mind) would have a problem working this way.
Even a single man/woman developer might prefer to simply 'go large' and have a larger long term development plan - time scale to work by.
I think Tracktion probably falls into this group, I expect we will only see minor updates that clear up the more serious bug's/issues - beyond that I might expect a .5 up-date that might introduce some bigger user requests as well.
FWIW I don't get the feeling that Tracktion is a development that will instigate changes/additions unless their is massive pressure to do so - I don't think this is an issue as the dev probably has a clear idea of where things are going.
I personally went through a phase here where I tried to get interest up in seing a full screen piano-roll - which I feel makes editing midi easier - it obviously is not something that will be happening in the immediate future but I will not write Tracktion off, although I don't currently use it as I find this area too fiddly for me.
I also agree with 'Beardedone' - the way expand/contract works seems less than usable at times - I have the EXACT same experience - I end up going to XT/Live as I get increasingly distressed (!) using the current midi implementation.
But if Tracktion is usable for 'you' then I wouldn't worry about extras: on the whole they just make a host 'fatter'!
Flipper.
I have not been following trends/issues here so I might be wrong about a few things!
I like the way that Jorgen of XT tends to post a list of 'work to do' every time he releases an update - the list can change to include FR's that have a heavy request.
I know with some bigger developers that have a multiple development team rather than a single developer (Logic, Cubase and Sonar come to mind) would have a problem working this way.
Even a single man/woman developer might prefer to simply 'go large' and have a larger long term development plan - time scale to work by.
I think Tracktion probably falls into this group, I expect we will only see minor updates that clear up the more serious bug's/issues - beyond that I might expect a .5 up-date that might introduce some bigger user requests as well.
FWIW I don't get the feeling that Tracktion is a development that will instigate changes/additions unless their is massive pressure to do so - I don't think this is an issue as the dev probably has a clear idea of where things are going.
I personally went through a phase here where I tried to get interest up in seing a full screen piano-roll - which I feel makes editing midi easier - it obviously is not something that will be happening in the immediate future but I will not write Tracktion off, although I don't currently use it as I find this area too fiddly for me.
I also agree with 'Beardedone' - the way expand/contract works seems less than usable at times - I have the EXACT same experience - I end up going to XT/Live as I get increasingly distressed (!) using the current midi implementation.
But if Tracktion is usable for 'you' then I wouldn't worry about extras: on the whole they just make a host 'fatter'!
Flipper.
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- The Teach
- 8273 posts since 23 Jul, 2002 from flatness
as ever ...
... please also remember that there IS a very active (however 'invisible' you might think the process is) system of bugspotting / bugfighting / featuretesting CONTINUOUSLY on the go ...
... as flipper mentioned (and as ive said previously) ... the new mackie tracktion is merely following a DIFFERENT aopproach than the old raw material tracktion ...
slainte rob
... please also remember that there IS a very active (however 'invisible' you might think the process is) system of bugspotting / bugfighting / featuretesting CONTINUOUSLY on the go ...
... as flipper mentioned (and as ive said previously) ... the new mackie tracktion is merely following a DIFFERENT aopproach than the old raw material tracktion ...
slainte
rob