why do our scales have seven notes?? and not 8, 9, 10 or 11?

Chords, scales, harmony, melody, etc.
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What I called bullshit on in the first place was this:
Similar to how 360 degrees are divided well by many integers, 12 semitones line up nearest to the desired integer fractions.

If you're going to ask this question I assume you've done the math?

frequency = root * (2 ^ 1/semitones) ^ offset

Then you need to find the ratio between notes, from offset = 0 to semitones.

Then find the LCM for those fractions.
Then you decided to straw man me to say I didn't get some arithmetic as if I had no comparison of rational temperament with 12ET? Bull_shit.

What do you feature you actually showed the class with that shite there? That you're a maths guy and they're not?

What I said can be researched, the history of 12 to an octave and 7 taken from that has to do with decisions according to rational temperament, a history of some centuries and people having musical reasons behind some choices. The twelth root of 2 didn't enter into it until it did, relatively late in the game, by necessity. However things were built in China in antiquity that were, statistically speaking 12 equal inside the 2:1.

In terms of western music: to obtain a system more useful [so it was ultimately believed by enough musicians] for modulation to twelve keys, which is a musical convention which was not always in place, a certain development of music thought over the ages. Over the not-trivial period this was worked on, many musicians found something was lost in the bargain. It had become the thing to do to have more keys/more variety and ultimately 'all twelve' and according to a system of ratios, the relationships got more and more problematic as per distance from "C Major". One should know this, and I frankly think setting forth one system is probably out of ignorance. <It's been a while since you checked it to see just how close you'd come to ET> rather reinforces that impression.

This is In The West; not everywhere, not by a long shot. Why did the Greeks settle on twelve after a time? Maybe it's cosmic, maybe they had the beautiful premise, maybe it just works for the ear in some way that's hard to define. But why seven of that is another matter still.

Like my rhetorical question, why would the Chinese go with six of twelve - quite like this seven but one omisssion, but that's the ear they have - and not the seven. Where there are instruments built to approximate seven equal to an octave, do they have a different mathematics do you think? Caucasian, please.

You have a premise you like but it isn't what happened, and isn't better really than the OP
The iconic number seven will play a central role here, because not only the week has seven days, and not only the world has seven wonders, but also the major scale consists of...
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Nov 10, 2013 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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"Now if you calculate the actual ratios of equal temperament as I prescribed"

:idiot:

The twelfth root of two is an algebraic irrational number.

the intervals it set to govern, for that particular musical goal for that particular musical culture, were originally out of ratios. Now they're not ratios at all, they're outcomes of the mathematical 12th root of 2 (They aren't really in practice, as any piano tuner or apprentice of that art fully knows. But they might be, in virtual music, so developers have provided ways of improving this situation as it's not the most musical thing to proceed with.).

So, this is what I mean by CART PULLING THE HORSE. Capisce?
Last edited by jancivil on Sun Nov 10, 2013 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Why do people want to know why shit is like it is?

Run DMC answered it already: "It's like that, and that's the way it is!"

So you better stop torturing your brain about it and just enjoy what you can do with the 12 tones :)

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jancivil, you can approximate irrational ratios by setting some upper limit.

I gave you the just-intonation that I personally prefer because it more closely approximates 12TET (if I recall correctly) than that on the wiki page. Ratios with an upper limit like 1000000 are more difficult to work with.

You obviously have no idea what you're talking about and have never really looked into this stuff before.

Also, you seem intent to focus on the how rather than the why and you use it as an explanation.

The question here is not how, but why.

It has to do with how closely 12TET approximates certain ratios which were most often used in music. It is a trade-off between these ratios vs. a common interval which allows a melody to be transposed freely.

It is no coincidence that the ratios for "black keys" are much larger than those for "whole tones". The result is that they sound "in between" the whole ratios and this fact has been observed over time in various just intonations as they moved toward approximating equal temperament.

Just as with 12TET you can draw similar lines regarding the development of other sets of ratios (just intonations) and their evolution toward approximating other equal temperaments.

If you want to get into discussing why I'm wrong about why 12TET exists as it does and is favored, that is a great topic and by all means please do.

You're just running in circles here however ranting about how things developed while remaining completely ignorant of why.

How can be summed up as: "by trial and error."

I know that isn't perfectly accurate in every case, it's merely a generalization. If we take all the numerous methods used to generate scales over time it really does look a lot like random chance - only it is pointed in a certain direction.

I don't think anyone cares that much about those approximations. The real question is: what were they approximating?

More importantly, why?
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This seems like the answer you're looking for:

http://thinkzone.wlonk.com/Music/12Tone.htm

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crazyfiltertweaker wrote:
The iconic number seven will play a central role here, because not only the week has seven days, and not only the world has seven wonders, but also the major scale consists of seven notes are known to


This "explaination" is the only one I have found about this...

But it dont gives a real answer for the question.

"Why have our western scales 7 tones?"

And not 8, 9, 10 or 11?

Yes I know 12 tones are chromatic and atonal. But every other amount is not chromatic, why 7 notes? And why two half steps?

In EVERY single theorie book I have read they give me just such answers, which tell me nothing. But Im searching for a real answer, an answer which EXPLAINS it, which answer the "why".

Especially the question why it dont have more or less.

Yes I know there are some other scales which have less (pentatonic as example) or more (some blues scales) but why is the 7 tone scale so popular? This is the big question for me!
as some have stated, it's because the 8th note is an octave (or 2x the root) and we begin a new series. A scale be anything you want it to be, though (pentatonic is 5 notes, for instance, but returns to an octave as well).
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CableChannel wrote:
Run DMC answered it already: "It's like that, and that's the way it is!"
ooh, thread gets served!

its on!

:hyper:
:ud:

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an octave is like the name said the eight note and since it's the same like the first with is just an octave deeper they can only be seven others inbetween for diatonic, heptatonic scales.
Whoever wants music instead of noise, joy instead of pleasure, soul instead of gold, creative work instead of business, passion instead of foolery, finds no home in this trivial world of ours.

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Because there are seven planets.

























































...oh, whoops

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well, there are 8. but the 8th is a return to the first, or something.
venus and uranus are the same.
:ud:

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There are also seven colours in the spectrum, and there is a way of explaining the entire design of the universe according to the laws of three and seven. Though this has more to do with just intonation than equal temperament.

Also, according to this law, there are two points between a particular frequency and double that frequency where there is a retardation in the rate of increase.
Last edited by maschinelf on Sun Nov 10, 2013 5:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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1 octave is just half or double the frequency - that is the only constant in music.

f(Ax) = 2*f(Ax-1)

so A3 is 440 hz I believe

that means A2 is 220 hz and A4 is 880hz


everything else are approximations - which half steps between those A's etc...

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vurt wrote: venus and uranus are the same.
I love quoting out of context. Apart from they're roughly spherical, how are they the same to anything, especially each other?
There are also seven colours in the spectrum
No there aren't, nor are there 5 senses. But I bet you can name them all!
Steve

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and music is relative.. if all the differences stay musiclaly you can shift your melodies in little hz steps.

proof: pitch your vinyl: it still has the same mood - same melodies.. cause its relative.

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bradleyfilms wrote:
vurt wrote: venus and uranus are the same.
I love quoting out of context. Apart from they're roughly spherical, how are they the same to anything, especially each other?
who can say? :shrug:
:ud:

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