vst automation

[MuTools]

Even if recording a parameter would auto insert the initial value at the start of the recording that won't define the parameter value before the start of the recording.

[pljones]

Code: Select all

Track |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
PartA |....|****_****|....|&&&&_&&&&|....|....|&&&&_&&&&|....|&&&&_&&&&|
PartB |****|....|....|&&&&|....|....|&&&&|....|....|....|&&&&|....|....|

The above shows two Parts, PartA and PartB, contained on one Track, that I recorded from my MIDI keyboard. The track is routed to a synth and the ModWheel on my keyboard is mapped to control an effect in the synth.

I record PartA first, then go back and record PartB (shown by the "*"). I use the ModWheel to control the effect. What should happen when PartA starts? Clearly resetting the value controlled by ModWheel is wrong -- I've got an end value from PartB that I'm expecting PartA to continue from. Either I'd have needed to choose to end PartB at some other point or I need to choose to change PartA. I cannot expect something magical to happen to know what I wanted -- especially as I didn't want it here.

Then I link-copy the parts along the track (shown by the "&"). What should happen when PartB starts for the second time? Clearly resetting the value is wrong again -- I'm still expecting the value at the end of PartA to continue until changed. If I hadn't wanted it there, I'd have recorded something different. Again, having magical intervention breaks my intended outcome. If I intended something other than what I recorded, I'd need to go back and either record it again or edit it.

[urvieh]

So I think if you know the behavior then that is sufficient. If you change something in one place there are problems at others. btw. Cubase does not make it much different than mulab

The only improvement that would make sense to me here would be that for an automation track a fixed startvalue could be defined.
this value could be always present until the first automation track arrives. so every jump-into-the-song befor the first automation takes the start-value

[MuTools]

The only improvement that would make sense to me here would be that for an automation track a fixed startvalue could be defined.
this value could be always present until the first automation track arrives. so every jump-into-the-song befor the first automation takes the start-value

That's already possible: Add such parameter automation event manually into a part that starts at 1.1.0 or whatever relevant start position.

[pljones]

The only improvement that would make sense to me here would be that for an automation track a fixed startvalue could be defined.
this value could be always present until the first automation track arrives. so every jump-into-the-song befor the first automation takes the start-value

OK, so I'm not recording but my ModWheel is adjusting the sound. I'm looping over a part and using the modwheel. I do not want magic happening every time the looping starts because it's the start of the song. That would be very bad. Unless I've explicitly put a value into a composition, it's very, very bad for that value to be in my composition. I'd call it a bug if it were to happen, it's so bad.

[jd88]

double post

[jd88]

The only improvement that would make sense to me here would be that for an automation track a fixed startvalue could be defined.
this value could be always present until the first automation track arrives. so every jump-into-the-song befor the first automation takes the start-value

OK, so I'm not recording but my ModWheel is adjusting the sound. I'm looping over a part and using the modwheel. I do not want magic happening every time the looping starts because it's the start of the song. That would be very bad. Unless I've explicitly put a value into a composition, it's very, very bad for that value to be in my composition. I'd call it a bug if it were to happen, it's so bad.

If you'll not record or place your Mod-Wheelvalue in track (or before as automation-startvalue ), how do you know next time you load your song what happens before?

Last time (last comment, and only because you postet while I'm writing my last comment.) : The MIDI-Standard-Controller are NOT reset while looping. Because The reset will only sent by pushing / or recall the stop-Button / btw. recalling stop or reset function or sometimes too 'panic-button' _ which sent (defined) some more reset-informations and sometimes clearing the aufiobuffer too!
This - Reset-Data - are not really recorded in a track or part or whatever (Only if you explicite recording). >> And some DAW's give an option to select 'if Reset is needed or not'. - (Or you can 'filter controller per Track')<<

But I've not to explain again and again For shure, I'm knowing what I'm talking about.
Look into another DAW's and you'll see. Or read about this or whatever

So now I'm really out of this discussion.

[jd88]

Code: Select all

Track |----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|----|
PartA |....|****_****|....|&&&&_&&&&|....|....|&&&&_&&&&|....|&&&&_&&&&|
PartB |****|....|....|&&&&|....|....|&&&&|....|....|....|&&&&|....|....|

The above shows two Parts, PartA and PartB, contained on one Track, that I recorded from my MIDI keyboard. The track is routed to a synth and the ModWheel on my keyboard is mapped to control an effect in the synth.

I record PartA first, then go back and record PartB (shown by the "*"). I use the ModWheel to control the effect. What should happen when PartA starts? Clearly resetting the value controlled by ModWheel is wrong -- I've got an end value from PartB that I'm expecting PartA to continue from. Either I'd have needed to choose to end PartB at some other point or I need to choose to change PartA. I cannot expect something magical to happen to know what I wanted -- especially as I didn't want it here.

Then I link-copy the parts along the track (shown by the "&"). What should happen when PartB starts for the second time? Clearly resetting the value is wrong again -- I'm still expecting the value at the end of PartA to continue until changed. If I hadn't wanted it there, I'd have recorded something different. Again, having magical intervention breaks my intended outcome. If I intended something other than what I recorded, I'd need to go back and either record it again or edit it.

I did'nt explain another thing.

It has only to reset if it's going back to start (And this maybe as option, like some DAW's doing). And exactly same for VSTi-automation (option not needed).
The rest will be working right if the DAW 'Looking back'. looking for the last change / value before the actuall position you start replay. - Normaly standard

Even if recording a parameter would auto insert the initial value at the start of the recording that won't define the parameter value before the start of the recording.

It has to be placed (recalled) at beginn (theory exactly: before beginn) of a track.
(I remember the beginn of all of this: Some Dev's included the feature 'all parameter snapshot' to actual position)

And to place each start-value of automation manually kills workflow, and if I'm using some more automationsm (I'm not knowing before) it's to much and sometimes to complicated to set them after recording manually.

Ok, a way to be shure to insert the right start-value at the right point:

1. (if automation-part not at the beginning of the track or / and this needed) consolidate the automation track ( ok, sometimes crashing or cutting / deleting first entries , but now by testing only two times with polysix)
2. (if not like that) expand beginning of the track to or before the first place you need the start-value (in my case beginning of song)
3. open automation track in Event Editor

Two ways:

4a. select first event and (because represents the def. starting value) set start-position like needed (quick version)

or

4b. click on first event (because represents the def. starting value) and click on 'insert' and select in popup 'parameter'.
4c. change the startpoint of the now new entry to position needed.

Hopefully the value will send at the right time when starting song (normaly cc are send-priority)

(This is the theoretic a basic how normaly MuTools can do it itself automaticly. Expanding Env. with first entry to left)

Really this is'nt perfect and takes much to much time, but it's better then drawing or something like that.



- - - - -


What a discussion: But it's easy: test yourselve what happens in other DAW's if you automate parameter. Example Ableton, Reaper or Reason with it's own RE's. Or ... You'll see what I mean.

And it is not a new feature I'm talking about. Standard-MIDI-Controller reset (see my post before) is mostly standard since around 1990 ( yes, C64 seq, Amiga- and Atari-seq. from Dr. T's KCS / Omega, Notator, Creator, MT-Pro, Realtime, M and, and, and, they all did it too)
and because Plug-automation since first VST's (yes and one of the first that did it, was Yamaha CX 5M in it's own soundengine-world, and there was a MIDI-sequencer too, that did reset Standard MIDI-Controller).

- but really nice discussion.

It is a feature-request (to get more standard, little bit better workflow for some musicians like me in MuTools), nothing more. So sorry ... ...

And to clarify:
Really no problem for me personally! Because I've most DAW's (MAC / PC / Linux actually on the market) installed (because it's my job since 1985) I'm using for this needed feature other DAW's ( and because they mostly can do what needed it's not important which one I'll start for this )

Maybe you'll look into my feature-request, if you'll find time or not. No problem.
Again: MuTools is a fantastic 'all in one' - DAW. So no problem ...
I'm out of this discussion.

[pljones]

If you'll not record or place your Mod-Wheelvalue in track (or before as automation-startvalue ), how do you know next time you load your song what happens before?

I put the value there. Very, very simple. If I want a value in a specific place at a specific time, I put it there. Whilst I'm working in real time, I do not want things happening just because "that's the start" (1.1.00000). I also do not want things happening just because I push "Start" -- that would mean weirdness, too (values reset all over the place when I'm mid flow, nightmare...).

I will agree quite happily that it would be nice if it were possible to have a "capture snapshot" to a timeline position -- but that relies on the VST being able to support it and I understand not all do, so I wouldn't rely on it anyway.

[MuTools]

The MIDI-Standard-Controller are NOT reset while looping.

I disagree. Looping back to loop start should set all automated controllers/parameters to their value at loop start position. Looping back to loop start should be the same as manually setting the position at loop start.

This - Reset-Data - are not really recorded in a track or part or whatever (Only if you explicite recording). >> And some DAW's give an option to select 'if Reset is needed or not'. - (Or you can 'filter controller per Track')<<

Well with MuLab's way (explicit start values in explicit parts) you have all possible scenarios covered into one simple method, and you can do also loop back to loop start without resetting a particular controller/parameter by muting the track/part containing the previous value.

And to place each start-value of automation manually kills workflow, and if I'm using some more automationsm (I'm not knowing before) it's to much and sometimes to complicated to set them after recording manually.

I will agree quite happily that it would be nice if it were possible to have a "capture snapshot" to a timeline position

Setting up a controller/parameter start value takes a couple of clicks and so i agree with both of you that it would be nice if that specific task could be streamlined by a specialized function. I've taken note about that on the wishlist.

[imstre]

You are amazing!
Your work is very good!!
you as Tesla Musik!!!
respect!!!!!!!

[jd88]

The MIDI-Standard-Controller are NOT reset while looping.

I disagree. Looping back to loop start should set all automated controllers/parameters to their value at loop start position. Looping back to loop start should be the same as manually setting the position at loop start.

you are right, if they are especially recorded or defined fix to a part or a loop. Or if they are NOT Standard-Def-Value (like maybe Modulation has sometimes not to starts on "0". Or as example like most GM-MIDIfiles doing for startsettings: CC7, 10, 11, 73 - 76, 64 - 66 aso. )

But NOT by the kind of 'RESET' and 'DEFAULT' I'm talking about - (STOP- go to begin o.S. / Start - from beginn o.S. / Panic-routine. The sendet Data are not recorded, the Data are predefined into the Code or maybe you can define them via Prefs - variable, and they will be sent by Code after push button, mostly Stop or Panic) And really only at absolut begin of Song (Panic each position, button is pushed)

This - Reset-Data - are not really recorded in a track or part or whatever (Only if you explicite recording). >> And some DAW's give an option to select 'if Reset is needed or not'. - (Or you can 'filter controller per Track')<<

- - - - -

Well with MuLab's way (explicit start values in explicit parts) you have all possible scenarios covered into one simple method, and you can do also loop back to loop start without resetting a particular controller/parameter by muting the track/part containing the previous value.

And to place each start-value of automation manually kills workflow, and if I'm using some more automationsm (I'm not knowing before) it's to much and sometimes to complicated to set them after recording manually.

I will agree quite happily that it would be nice if it were possible to have a "capture snapshot" to a timeline position

- - - - - - -

Setting up a controller/parameter start value takes a couple of clicks and so i agree with both of you that it would be nice if that specific task could be streamlined by a specialized function. I've taken note about that on the wishlist.

perfect