Possible scam buyer! Using PayPal Friends & Family = NO PROTECTION if you get scammed

[V0RT3X]

Honestly It makes me suspicious of anyone who makes the argument that F&F is a good idea..

Buyer beware.

[GaryG]

Sellers who insist on payment with F&F (or you pay the fees...) annoy me. You (the seller) have chosen PP as your transaction processor so pay up for the service, should be considered part of the transaction, maybe price your plug a couple of quid higher to cover it if you must.

[Calenberger]

^^^ Exactly my opinion as well.

[pinki]

It is not a legal matter.
What about buying off people I know and trust?

Oh and getting money back off Paypal even using their protection?...good luck with that.

[el-bo (formerly ebow)]

However, anyone who tells PayPal that they are sending money to a friend or family member, when they are actually making a transaction for goods or services, is entering into a business deal under false pretenses. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't be surprised if that is considered commercial fraud.

...

It's up to each person whether they prefer to play it safe and legal, or skirt applicable laws for the sake of a few dollars. As I said, at least two KVR members are out significant amounts due to this scam. And that's just the past couple weeks.

I'm not sure things are so clear-cut, these days. I believe that 'Goods & Services' had for so long become synonymous with 'transaction insurance', as opposed to the sales tax/commission it was likely originally intended to be (The insurance being an added benefit), that PayPal now presents the option as 'Purchase Protection'.

PayPal writes:

Send with Purchase Protection

Buying something? You could get a full refund if an eligible item gets lost or damaged. Purchase Protection is free for you, the seller pays a fee.

I'm not really inclined to go digging into the small print to confirm, 'cause a) IANAL, and, b) I only ever deal with 'G & S' fees, in place. I'm just suggesting that if indeed it has become an option for buyers/sellers to either pay for insurance/protection, or take the personal risk, with no further legal ramifications, then perhaps we might hold off on accusations of fraud against PayPal.Perhaps somebody with more legal inclinations might be able to confirm

[Gamma-UT]

Sellers who insist on payment with F&F (or you pay the fees...) annoy me. You (the seller) have chosen PP as your transaction processor so pay up for the service, should be considered part of the transaction, maybe price your plug a couple of quid higher to cover it if you must.

In the past - it's been a while since I've bought anything 2ndhand here - I've just said I'll add the fee to the price to avoid F&F on the basis that it doesn't make that much of a difference to me...and if they get cold feet at that point it was probably problem-purchase avoided. The only exception was a famous now-banned buyer and seller who you could rely on to come through when it came to buying and selling.

[Gamma-UT]

However, anyone who tells PayPal that they are sending money to a friend or family member, when they are actually making a transaction for goods or services, is entering into a business deal under false pretenses. I'm not a lawyer but I wouldn't be surprised if that is considered commercial fraud.

The issue may be more about PayPal's TOS and their ability to kick you off their service rather than them trying to do you for fraud (which does seem unlikely given the sums involved) if you kick up a fuss about being ripped off by a "friend".

[EnGee]

I always pay with Goods and services option. Mostly I cover the paypal taxes but not always.

I also indicate the prices are inclusive of the paypal taxes when I sell something, but sometimes I got paid with Family & Friends option, just a kind gesture from the buyer mostly. Anyway, after reading the first posts by Meffy, I won't accept from now payment as family and friends because of the risk mentioned! It is also better for my peace of mind because I don't feel the doubts from the buyer towards me when the license transfer getting delayed!

[JoaquinAce]

I’ve sold several items via friends and family that cost several hundred dollars, and sometimes offer to send payments via friends and family to try and get prices a bit lower, and to help sellers with fees.

Saying anyone who uses friends and family is trying to scam is not right in my opinion. There are still good people in the world who are just looking for good deals and will offer to send payments this way or request to receive them this way. Doesn’t always mean they are scammers.

I second this.

Totally. I feel that demanding F&F payment can be a red flag, but giving the buyer the choice avoids that. So the buyer can choose to pay a few $ less and go via F&F OR add a few $ for fees. I put the ‘discounted’ price in the for sale add. So please let’s use the term ‘scammer’ a lot more carefully. We are not businesses doing for-profit business on here. This is supposedly a friend(ly) place where friends and family discuss and trade music instruments and knowledge. Sometimes that trade involves cash. But please let’s not make it suspicious that anyone who mentions friends and family payment, could be scammer. Buyers and sellers, go look in the feedback thread. Use more diligence with new and 0 posters. But let’s not become paranoid and suspicious like the rest of society. We are here for music people.

[agharta]

I had one seller that didn't specify the PayPal fee so I suggested 5% on top which is common practice and they agreed.
I paid them and afterwards they came back and said that what they received was 15c short of $40 and would I make a second payment.
I thought that was pathetic and I wasn't going to make a 2nd payment just for 15c.
They finally realised that it was their error and accepted it.
Their current listing still states that Paypal fees are covered by the buyer with no mention of the rate.

[becseigy]

Anyway, after reading the first posts by Meffy, I won't accept from now payment as family and friends because of the risk mentioned!

How do you do this?
It may be area dependent or paypal setup issue? I get every payment the same way.
No need to click to accept or not a payment. In fact, I don't even know how the buyer paid. I just see the amount (an integer number or not - the paypal fee never is an integer). I don't understand why and what I should be looking for as a seller.
If a scammer want chargeback at his bank, it doesn't matter. The bank will start the process and paypal will reject it because the buyer used the f & f option.

As a buyer: yes, I'm using F&F option only when I know the seller. And this is my advice for everyone.

[EnGee]

You can know when you see the amount you received! It lists the taxes taken from the amount!
I can state that only goods and business option is allowed, otherwise I would return the money. What's difficult in that?

[becseigy]

You can know when you see the amount you received! It lists the taxes taken from the amount!
I can state that only goods and business option is allowed, otherwise I would return the money. What's difficult in that?

Thank you. That was my question. There is no way to automatically reject this payments.
But if you return the money frequently your paypal balance will soon drop, since it's not free either
(of course, this is only a theoretical proposition )

[Daimonicon]

I avoid buying from sellers who insist on Friends & Family payments for the same reason. Would rather pay more and stay safe.

I just don't get it why so many insist on F&F or pay the PP % fee. Just bake the PP fee into the price. Who is so stupid and use F&F when we know how easy it is to be scammed.

[chk071]

Sellers who insist on payment with F&F (or you pay the fees...) annoy me. You (the seller) have chosen PP as your transaction processor so pay up for the service, should be considered part of the transaction, maybe price your plug a couple of quid higher to cover it if you must.

Exactly that.

Nobody's ever suggested to pay my banking fees on Ebay...