Using chords derived from non-natural major/minor keys

[Vurniks]

I'm not sure if I'm allowed to place a link here, but I wrote a paper on chord types and you can download the pdf for free at my ad-free website: https://composer.rowy.net/Chords.html

[jancivil]

[...]those chords like minor major 7th or major 7th #5 (1st and 3rd chords in melodic minor scale) - when do you use them, in what function, what scale and/or mode you play over them? Do you use them as subs for some other chords?

That chord Jan mentions (mi ma7 add 9) is there in the opening guitar chords of Cry Me a River ...

I meant G# C E B as C aug ^7 but second inversion. I seriously doubt Page or whoever was thinking that, as it's a classic move from Am, move the bass down a semitone for that thing (in Stairway there's your add 9, B if A is the root; but A has been replaced by G# there or at least I'm not detecting the A particularly), then a semitone down some more so it's [G] C E C, then some more again to F# for a D major (in jazz usage this'll prob'ly be F# C E A as though D9 while de facto F#ø7 or "F#m7b5"); and one mo' 'gin down to F for an F^7).

So we're opening up a whole area of complexity and magic, availed by minor key. You may call that second harmony Am^7(9), the third one Am7, and then D9 which suggests some things in that.
BTW I just saw some JS Bach which [in G minor] does that D7 then a Dm7 (then an Em7!) which are actual/real seventh chords as they don't resolve in any way at all.

[jancivil]

as to what kind of line over such a harmony (either a i^7 or a III+5^7 et al) is available, it depends on what the thing is. In general if I'm playing over a harmony live I look for the crux of the matter and target that/those tones in the context, where did we come from and where are we headed.
I'm all 'by ear' here because you can't think and play at the same time.

The interest for me in eg., m/M7 is in the intervals. Once found, a "C B [A] G# (in descension)" is an object that can be reflected outside that matching harmony, but it tends to need to be in service of the harmony (note well the upper extensions, so if it's A minor, Eb D [C] B has a poignance of 9 and b5 (blue note to D). Lotta people like to match scales to chords exactly, but I don't think that way ideally.
Gb F [D] C# is next in sequence which promotes D as a potential planet in advance of eg., a move to a iv area.

[jsaras]

Not to sound trite, but you can use those harmonies wherever your taste and logic demand them. They're both 4-note structures. If you have the skill there's little difficulty connecting them to any other 4-note tertial structure.

[Helio131]

For some flamenco musics I often use them

[eLawnMust]

Well, I use Minor 7th-9th-11th, Major 7th-9th-11th-13th in everything as well as others. Many different 'feels' the use of Major 7ths & 9ths imparts a much more enigmatic feel. Try say a CMaj7 then go 'up' a 4th to F & play a FSUS2 or FSUS7 then go to BbMaj7 then up a 4th ETC ETC good practice for such a feel, You will then start to 'recognize' this run in many musics.

Using such compound chordings allows for more creative freedom in your melodies as well. And it DON'T matter what genre you like incorporate anyway. Alot of modern musics seem to use less of these but back in 70's compounds were found in all pop, motown, rock, funk, jazz, fusion trust me I have nothing to gain.

Since I never use a triad in any of my tunes you might want to see what 'all compounds' sounds like-

A WIP in Protrekkr heavy compounds & whole-tone riff at changeover (No worries it's short so far)-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-wanin ... -iteration


Here's another I just started in AXS tracker that is just 2 compounds...EbMin7 to CMaj9 if you start at Eb as the root you just move 'UP' a note on all keys to get the CMaj9 at the third (E) as root-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-wanin ... me-a-river


Here's another that is different from former 2 still all compounds-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/soylent-greed


Here's one I did in 2015 in Aero Studio, not very good but some like it. CMin7-DMin7-EbMaj7 except for the end.

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-waning/apache-swagger


Hope that helps...

[eLawnMust]

Here's another that might be OK example I did in SunVox back in 2015 using internal synths & some krappy XI instruments - Simple CMaj7 to EbMaj7 & back except for the END which is a Maj13th chord which would be a CMaj7 with a D Major Triad on top giving it a 'final' feel. This is not the same as a 13th chord which would be the dominant version but only real difference is the flatted 7th-

https://soundcloud.com/waxing-and-wanin ... is-highway

[jancivil]

(topic being ‘derived from minor w. ^7’)
The interest [the difference] here is that m3/M7 combination, isn’t it.
So there’s a synthetic structure or two available by taking either enharmonically
(at C): Fø7 aka Fm7b5 {F Ab ‘Cb’ Eb}; B Major/dim {B ‘D#’ F Ab; or w. A, F7b5 ie., F A Cb Eb aka B7b5, B D# F A} [leaving alone the vanilla* vii7 of major, B D F A].

(pedant’s note: here, the same notes but enharmonically = chromatic, considered *diatonic w the ‘right’ spellings.)

[jancivil]

if we go the more polychord or extensions route, we can have FZ’s Minor Lydian chord on iv, eg., G major on top of Fm, and we’re still diatonically minor. I don’t go for a name eg., ‘Fm#11 13’ which has the jazz baggage of a 7 as a given. #4/6?