Linnstrument vs Push 3 (and what it means)

[SLiC]

Obviously Push 3 does not have the playability that linnstrument has, due to the pads being too big, but I think it is bound to open some doors for future linnstrument players.

Some are saying it's actually more playable as the pads are bigger, more room to slide up and down on the individual pad adding even more expression...slide up and down was always good on something like a seaboard but hast worked so well on small pad based so although it has less pads, it may be 'more' playable and possibly more expressive....I am sure we will get some real user feedback soon.

You are right, that was completely written from my point of view. Off course it depends on what a person regards as playability. I have never really used the y-axis as it mostly just gets in the way for my style of playing. Playable for me is to be able to play melodicly (using one hand only) with great agilty and (if needed) speed. And for that, the pad dimensions of the linnstrument are very good (which is certainly no coincidence.)
The pad size of controllers like Push 3 comes from a completely different chain of thought: Finger drumming. I think it is safe to say that Ableton has never given it a thought, how well you can play a one handed scale on those pads. They have a large customer group that are used to a certain pad size, and that works for them. And yes, it probably turns out, that in some ways the bigger pads will be good for certain things (y-axis expression) or people with huge hands. Also two handed chords/arpeggios will be fine - we see people play them kind of like one uses a text-keyboard with two fingers: You do not rely on muscle memory, but you play a note after visually identifying it.

Every user will have different needs but I think PUSH 3 will be more accessible for new users with the bigger pads and perhaps more importantly 'scale' mode (which in many case will give you more playable notes on less pads). Also the price point isn't bad at all- you get a good MPE player, an Audio Interface and a fantastic Live (or Bitwig) controller with capacitive rotaries, a big display, lots of buttons, transport control, touch strip etc- a lot of people will see value in 'the package' not just the MPE part.

I think PUSH 3 will make grid based MPE mainstream, which can only be good for everyone with more MPE VSTS as standard

[Dirk Diggler]

After looking at the specs and all, apparently the Push 3 now refers to 3 degrees of expression.

I thought full MPE includes all 5 degrees of expression? So not fully MPE?

Linnstrument is a playable controller instrument, Push is a clip launcher.
I don't think they are even in the same galaxy.

[FranklyFlawless]

After looking at the specs and all, apparently the Push 3 now refers to 3 degrees of expression.

I thought full MPE includes all 5 degrees of expression? So not fully MPE?

Linnstrument is a playable controller instrument, Push is a clip launcher.
I don't think they are even in the same galaxy.

Usually Note On/Note Off are omitted from product descriptions. Some do not even mention MPE, like the Soundplane.

[LarsDaniel]

After looking at the specs and all, apparently the Push 3 now refers to 3 degrees of expression.

I thought full MPE includes all 5 degrees of expression? So not fully MPE?

Linnstrument is a playable controller instrument, Push is a clip launcher.
I don't think they are even in the same galaxy.

Usually Note On/Note Off are omitted from product descriptions. Some do not even mention MPE, like the Soundplane.

And to be honest: Note Off as an expression parameter is something that I have seen in demos, but in real life use it just isn’t a big deal. Five expressive parameters is on paper 25% more than four parameters, right, but it is certainly not a fifth of any mpe player’s expressive power. If some higher power decided to eradicate Note Off from our planet, I would not expect to see many people at the protest parade.

[BobDog]

Take a look at around 9 minutes- lots of range their...

https://youtu.be/Nw1edFfDCvE

I shouldn't have watched that video!

[BobDog]

After looking at the specs and all, apparently the Push 3 now refers to 3 degrees of expression.

I thought full MPE includes all 5 degrees of expression? So not fully MPE?

Linnstrument is a playable controller instrument, Push is a clip launcher.
I don't think they are even in the same galaxy.

Usually Note On/Note Off are omitted from product descriptions. Some do not even mention MPE, like the Soundplane.

And to be honest: Note Off as an expression parameter is something that I have seen in demos, but in real life use it just isn’t a big deal. Five expressive parameters is on paper 25% more than four parameters, right, but it is certainly not a fifth of any mpe player’s expressive power. If some higher power decided to eradicate Note Off from our planet, I would not expect to see many people at the protest parade.

There would be at least one, I'm already painting the placard!

So are people saying that the Push 3 doesn't have release velocity?

[Roger_Linn]

I've gotten some questions about comparisons to the new Push, so I just added an FAQ about it on the LinnStrument FAQ page, Pre-Sales tab, FAQ "How does LinnStrument compare to the 2023 Ableton Push?":

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support ... ument-faqs

[Dirk Diggler]

Call me crazy but I actually enjoy "lift" control at times, great for bell-like sustain stuff.
It's a curious gesture to that requires practice to pull of consistently.
Thanks for the nice FAQ update too Roger.

[SLiC]

I've gotten some questions about comparisons to the new Push, so I just added an FAQ about it on the LinnStrument FAQ page, Pre-Sales tab, FAQ "How does LinnStrument compare to the 2023 Ableton Push?":

https://www.rogerlinndesign.com/support ... ument-faqs

An excellent (and generous) response Roger... just different instruments for different needs/playing styles...

[SteveElbows]

After looking at the specs and all, apparently the Push 3 now refers to 3 degrees of expression.

I thought full MPE includes all 5 degrees of expression? So not fully MPE?

Linnstrument is a playable controller instrument, Push is a clip launcher.
I don't think they are even in the same galaxy.

The perception of what 'full MPE' means has mostly been driven by the marketing used by the likes of ROLI, especially when it came to how peoples expectations were set when they first heard about this kind of expressivity, rather than what the technical specification of MPE states is mandatory. I dont think the official MPE spec even goes on about release velocity, and technically I think its also optional as to whether a controller even uses CC74 (AKA MPE Slide, AKA MPE Y).

As for your other point, Linnstrument and Push 3 are in the same galaxy, the Push 3 is very playable and also fits the definition of instrument by including various sound engines in the standalone version. They do have different strengths and weaknesses, as eloquently expressed by Roger Linn and others.

There is certainly room for both in the world, though in practical terms such a statement also has to take account of factors such as what volume of sales are deemed necessary by each individual manufacturer in order to keep the product on the market.

[Roger_Linn]

Well put, Steve. Regarding 5D, that is ROLI-speak. Last time I checked, our particular universe has only 3 physical dimensions. Velocity, Release Velocity and Pressure and all a single dimension, the Z axis.

[SteveElbows]

Well put, Steve. Regarding 5D, that is ROLI-speak. Last time I checked, our particular universe has only 3 physical dimensions. Velocity, Release Velocity and Pressure and all a single dimension, the Z axis.

ROLIs accounts department attempted to defy the laws of physics too, but gravity always wins.

[Roger_Linn]

But LinnStrument benefitted greatly from ROLI spreading the word about expressive touch control, as well as making the great MPE synth Equator and the FXpansion synths.

[SteveElbows]

But LinnStrument benefitted greatly from ROLI spreading the word about expressive touch control, as well as making the great MPE synth Equator and the FXpansion synths.

Yes, its certainly true that although I cannot help still having my mind boggled and making jokes about their 'tech startup absurd levels of spending and overly large venture capital driven' model during their original incarnation, I usually remember to point out that I will always be grateful that a lot of their spending and efforts helped MPE's foundations, awareness and growth.

You, Geert Bevin, ROLI, Haken and various others all belong in the MPE hall of fame. And as we have moved into this subsequent era, others can be added to that hall of fame, including Expressive E and now Ableton.

[GruvSyco]

Soundplane dude was the first one I can remember. It’s just beautiful too.

I’m intrigued by Push 3. It may be my main controller whenever I get one. I’ll never be a just one controller person though. I love the feel of weighted keys but much prefer grid controllers. I also have a thing for capacitive touch controllers like those from Buchla. There’s something mental that happens where I feel like I’m part of the flow of electrons. It’s certainly a wonderful time to be a synthesist.