Poll: How about an alliance against Apple strategies? (Catalina, OpenGL...)

[stratology]

https://versus.com/en/apple-iphone-11-p ... y-s10-plus

These are specs on paper, what I posted shows actual, real world performance.

[stratology]

... that these kind of religious Mac users..
...
The actual problem is that the today's common mac user has so low knowledge about the system he/she uses and therefore no capabilities for critics at all. Even worse, people commonly blindly trust these kind of companies, the image of the company.

I am so sick of this nonsense. You present your prejudices as if they were facts.


If you cannot understand the motivations of others, please stop making unfounded assumptions about them.

[fmr]

https://versus.com/en/apple-iphone-11-p ... y-s10-plus

These are specs on paper, what I posted shows actual, real world performance.

Look for the top 17 smartphones with higher CPU specs. NONE of them is an iPhone. WTF are you talking about?

You start to look like an Apple paid guy who is here to spread their marketing BS... Wake up. People here are usually VERY WELL informed. You need to come up with FACTS, not marketing BS.

[JunSev]

Other people might think of these explanations as misconceptions. Such as the hardship of OpenGL going away in few years. Or the hardship of adding a three line shell script for code sign and notarisation. The motives are insinuated to be evil and speculations are made without further ado.

Hm, I have more the impression that these kind of religious mac users in here have no arguments and simply ignore the points which were made in here. Even worse, they start to be aggressive, insulting. Why is that? Because of the amount of good arguments?

Being an ex OSX fan, I am unsatisfied with this trend of Apple, the behaviour of not taking care of users and developers at all, doing decisions without foresight for us, only for them. It is the sum of all they do. The actual problem is that the today's common mac user has so low knowledge about the system he/she uses and therefore no capabilities for critics at all. Even worse, people commonly blindly trust these kind of companies, the image of the company. And if you don't know any details, you only can believe. And I think that is obviously the common behaviour of a normal mac user.

If they take OpenGL away, which could be for good reason considered as outdated, why they don't give a shit for crossplatform developers, which usually are all which produce more "professional" software? Where is the crossplatform wrapper by Apple? Or Metal for Windows? Apple completely changed also here, from open minded to very egocentric, narrow minded.

The concept that Apple is more trustfully than yourself seems to be quite dumb and naive to me. A trojan, virus etc. still will circumvent the write protection, it is one hack more. Who is protected against whom here? Is it really that the user is protected against security threads, or is it more like that the company is protected against users free will? So I think it is not hard to conclude that the real reason behind this is to take control over the users' devices and data, which is the common trend in IT and reality in iOS. Since you blindly have to trust a stock driven company. Are there any good examples of this concept in the computer world? Why you should do that?

Even worse, let's say the system volume is write protected and now there is a virus, you can't remove the virus yourself, you will be dependent on Apple then. The concept assumes that the Apple security is perfect. You might not even realize anymore that there is a virus installed.

In the end, the most of these strategies are more bad than good for users, developers, and also the ecosystem macos. And also that Apple plans the "total lock-in" a.k.a. a completely dependent not free user, it is not any more speculation, but obviously politics of Apple since a lot of years. And it starts with the way they now build their machines and concept the os.

And there was no reason to write protect the system volume, kext are not bad as they now are considered in the very badly-thought propaganda argumentation. Macs barely did crash or were compromised at all, even with 3rd party kexts. Also they will make a lot of third-party solutions impossible. And very often their own solutions are worse than third party.

Also adding a lot of complexity to a system does not increase the security, it makes it more vulnerable and more difficult to debug also.

If your macos experience is much better as a hackintosher than as a regular mac user, there is really something wrong. If they now removed the reasons to do hackintosh at all, that would have been the right direction. Instead, they mainly give new reasons. And they of course actively try to make hackintosh experience worse instead macos experience much better and open-minded.

In the end, it will be a extremely inflexible monopole-driven narrow-minded system. Actually it already is. Ok, you could argue that Windows has a similar direction, but at least not 50% of your plugins won't be usable anymore after the next system update. Also Microsoft stopped that OS version nonsense at least. In the end Windows nowadays seems to be much less effort, since Apple takes away all advantages of macos.

Thanks, I'm not so good explaining those things sometimes, good info.

[stratology]

Look for the top 17 smartphones with higher CPU specs. NONE of them is an iPhone. WTF are you talking about?

I'm talking about measuring real world performance, as opposed to specs on paper.


This has nothing to do with Apple, it's a fundamental reality of technology.
Example: for the USB 3 protocol, you have theoretical maximum speeds, and you can measure the actual real world speed, which is much lower.


If you have a CPU spec, measured performance does not only depend on the clock speed, but also on other things, like software/hardware integration. That's why you measure, instead of blindly ('religiously' - haha) believing manufacturer's specs.

[Haptix]

Look for the top 17 smartphones with higher CPU specs. NONE of them is an iPhone. WTF are you talking about?

I'm talking about measuring real world performance, as opposed to specs on paper.


This has nothing to do with Apple, it's a fundamental reality of technology.
Example: for the USB 3 protocol, you have theoretical maximum speeds, and you can measure the actual real world speed, which is much lower.


If you have a CPU spec, measured performance does not only depend on the clock speed, but also on other things, like software/hardware integration. That's why you measure, instead of blindly ('religiously' - haha) believing manufacturer's specs.

You should neither believe blindy on an affiliate sites' reviews of those measurements. You should know exactly how eg. tests like cinebench work, and since when that equals a "reallife" measurement? You buy an iPhone and keep looping cinebench stress test on it?

[Haptix]

..and for fcuk sake, dont you think there just a bit more to it than a test? The overall performance / quality of the product, what makes it "better". Like the cult of the black woolen shirt advocates always say, "design is not just about the looks, its about usability"

For the past several years, has any Apple product been usable? Without constant waiting for a fix for something, what was broken for some reason? Until the next "update" with new shiny features comes and brakes the stuff what was about to get fixed. Maybe the next will fix them then, who knows..

[stratology]

You should neither believe blindy on an affiliate sites' reviews of those measurements. You should know exactly how eg. tests like cinebench work, and since when that equals a "reallife" measurement? You buy an iPhone and keep looping cinebench stress test on it?

Hey, feel free to link to any independent third party performance test results comparing the latest iPhones to competitors.


Are you arguing that Geekbench are now Apple affiliates?

[MeldaProduction]

Other people might think of these explanations as misconceptions. Such as the hardship of OpenGL going away in few years. Or the hardship of adding a three line shell script for code sign and notarisation. The motives are insinuated to be evil and speculations are made without further ado.

Hm, I have more the impression that these kind of religious mac users in here have no arguments and simply ignore the points which were made in here. Even worse, they start to be aggressive, insulting. Why is that? Because of the amount of good arguments?

Being an ex OSX fan, I am unsatisfied with this trend of Apple, the behaviour of not taking care of users and developers at all, doing decisions without foresight for us, only for them. It is the sum of all they do. The actual problem is that the today's common mac user has so low knowledge about the system he/she uses and therefore no capabilities for critics at all. Even worse, people commonly blindly trust these kind of companies, the image of the company. And if you don't know any details, you only can believe. And I think that is obviously the common behaviour of a normal mac user.

If they take OpenGL away, which could be for good reason considered as outdated, why they don't give a shit for crossplatform developers, which usually are all which produce more "professional" software? Where is the crossplatform wrapper by Apple? Or Metal for Windows? Apple completely changed also here, from open minded to very egocentric, narrow minded.

The concept that Apple is more trustfully than yourself seems to be quite dumb and naive to me. A trojan, virus etc. still will circumvent the write protection, it is one hack more. Who is protected against whom here? Is it really that the user is protected against security threads, or is it more like that the company is protected against users free will? So I think it is not hard to conclude that the real reason behind this is to take control over the users' devices and data, which is the common trend in IT and reality in iOS. Since you blindly have to trust a stock driven company. Are there any good examples of this concept in the computer world? Why you should do that?

Even worse, let's say the system volume is write protected and now there is a virus, you can't remove the virus yourself, you will be dependent on Apple then. The concept assumes that the Apple security is perfect. You might not even realize anymore that there is a virus installed.

In the end, the most of these strategies are more bad than good for users, developers, and also the ecosystem macos. And also that Apple plans the "total lock-in" a.k.a. a completely dependent not free user, it is not any more speculation, but obviously politics of Apple since a lot of years. And it starts with the way they now build their machines and concept the os.

And there was no reason to write protect the system volume, kext are not bad as they now are considered in the very badly-thought propaganda argumentation. Macs barely did crash or were compromised at all, even with 3rd party kexts. Also they will make a lot of third-party solutions impossible. And very often their own solutions are worse than third party.

Also adding a lot of complexity to a system does not increase the security, it makes it more vulnerable and more difficult to debug also.

If your macos experience is much better as a hackintosher than as a regular mac user, there is really something wrong. If they now removed the reasons to do hackintosh at all, that would have been the right direction. Instead, they mainly give new reasons. And they of course actively try to make hackintosh experience worse instead macos experience much better and open-minded.

In the end, it will be a extremely inflexible monopole-driven narrow-minded system. Actually it already is. Ok, you could argue that Windows has a similar direction, but at least not 50% of your plugins won't be usable anymore after the next system update. Also Microsoft stopped that OS version nonsense at least. In the end Windows nowadays seems to be much less effort, since Apple takes away all advantages of macos.

[Haptix]

You should neither believe blindy on an affiliate sites' reviews of those measurements. You should know exactly how eg. tests like cinebench work, and since when that equals a "reallife" measurement? You buy an iPhone and keep looping cinebench stress test on it?

Hey, feel free to link to any independent third party performance test results comparing the latest iPhones to competitors.


Are you arguing that Geekbench are now Apple affiliates?

Good jeesus, fcuk me sideways and call me sally..

[mgw38]

The „everyday“ performance the the latest iPhones comes from the hardware accelerated AI. That has impact on face tracking, camera functionality, etc. Traditional specs such as CPU speed and the like are fairly irrelevant for that. When it comes to mobile AI performance, nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip.

[audiothing]

Is not only about the 32bit plug-ins, there is clearly more about it, already better explained by Markus and Melda.

Is there really?
The only two things I can think of are:
1) OpenGL being deprecated. Which was introduced with Mojave, so already more than a year ago. Also, the current version is from 2010 (9 years ago!), clearly a sign that they had no intention to support it in the long term. Still, it's just deprecated for now, and I bet it won't be deleted anytime soon. It's time to move on.

2) JIT/running unsigned code into memory. As far as I know, it's still possible but it's up to the host to use the right entitlements. This is used by advanced copy protection systems (like iLok) and virus/malware. So, yeah, that might be a problem for some since there's no alternative (afaik), but the method that needs to be used (NSCreateObjectFileImageFromMemory) was marked deprecated with OS X 10.5: 2009, 10 years ago!

I don't like the fast obsolescence of the products I'm buying or the fact that my plug-ins are unusable in so short time so the corporations create more products and I need to drop more Cash $€£ for the last trendings... that's not ok.

The products you bought for, let's say, macOS 10.6, will still work on that version, no matter what.
If you want to run the latest OS while keeping older products, then you might need to carefully choose which developer to buy from.
We always try to give free updates, especially compatibility updates (even when there's a lot of work involved). But sometimes a paid upgrade is inevitable, and, as a user myself, I would still prefer to pay for a (big) update, rather than pay for a subscription.

[fmr]

The „everyday“ performance the the latest iPhones comes from the hardware accelerated AI. That has impact on face tracking, camera functionality, etc. Traditional specs such as CPU speed and the like are fairly irrelevant for that. When it comes to mobile AI performance, nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip.

What is "mobile AI performance"? I am still waiting for proved evidence of real advantages coming from it. For the moment, it is nothing more than marketing BS, IMO.

And who says "nothing currently come close to Apples ARM chip"?

[JCJR]

So the lesson is still not learned? Apple changed, changes, and will change things incompatibly. Why it is still a surprise?

Truth! I was a real slow learner. I should have recognized apple as an irredeemable Mad King Ludwig hot mess as early as the second cpu change. Oh well, we live and learn.

[MeldaProduction]

It seems tgat we have 2 camps:

- Apple lovers, who like the approach of removing old software and are ok with the fact that every dev out therevwill have to reinvent the wheel.

- Apple haters (including me), who don't like that and want the manufacturer to provideca compatibility layer.

That's pretty much it. Anyways I stand by my opinion. Progress is good, but needs to be done smartly.