hmmm...
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- KVRAF
- 2750 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from Raincoast of Grayland
You whacked the Quacker?
perception: the stuff reality is made of.
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- KVRAF
- 16154 posts since 2 Dec, 2003 from Nashville, TN
Better than quacking the whacker!
Anyways, although Jules did say that he wasn't as active, NOWHERE did it say that he does nothing. The way he talked was pretty much saying to me that he still kind of oversees things concept-wise, and gives advice, but doesn't do as much of the coding. That's my opinion on what he meant. But he hasn't QUIT on anything, despite what some people are gathering from this.
Koolkeys
Anyways, although Jules did say that he wasn't as active, NOWHERE did it say that he does nothing. The way he talked was pretty much saying to me that he still kind of oversees things concept-wise, and gives advice, but doesn't do as much of the coding. That's my opinion on what he meant. But he hasn't QUIT on anything, despite what some people are gathering from this.
Koolkeys
My host is better than your host
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- KVRAF
- 2750 posts since 2 Feb, 2005 from Raincoast of Grayland
Yeah, it worried me tho, that part about seeking amusement elsewhere.
Quick! Somebody load the Clown-nose VST into Tracktion and track something amusing! We can't let Jules get bored.
Quick! Somebody load the Clown-nose VST into Tracktion and track something amusing! We can't let Jules get bored.
perception: the stuff reality is made of.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
Lunch Money and koolkeys - I agree with pretty much everything you guys are saying, but just wanted to comment on a couple of Greg's points:
) the last public update was 2.0.1.13 on June 29, nearly three months ago. Like you I came along at around v1.4ish, and I do remember there being updates every month or less.
There seem to be those companies that try to develop a good forum relationship with their user base (e.g. Cakewalk, Ableton, Image Line) and those that remain more aloof (e.g. Sony, Steinberg, Mackie). In view of Tracktion's past it is a pity that Mackie fit into the second group.
I agree with the suggestion that a regular rain-check from Mackie about progress would be a good thing, and (without meaning to go all "Ableton-fanboy" on you) here's an example of how that can look in practice:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26978
If you ARE having a problem with the software, it's good to be able to check on the list and see if it's been/being addressed.
And regarding the view that giving users the heads-up is fooliosh business because it alerts your competitors to your plans... well the policy doesn't seem to be harming Cakewalk, Ableton, etc. one little bit.
In the interests of being factual (and I know you always aim for fairness GregAnd the last "stable" release was what... a month ago? Less? Hardly an eternity.
) the last public update was 2.0.1.13 on June 29, nearly three months ago. Like you I came along at around v1.4ish, and I do remember there being updates every month or less.Not "common", perhaps, but it does happenLunch Money wrote:But you can bet your ass that it's NOT in the other programmer's job description, "Visit KvR and other internet forums and make those people feel better." They're getting paid to program, not to surf the forum. If you think Mackie should pay someone to be on the forum, that's a fair enough opinion, but it's only an opinion and it's certainly NOT common business practice.
There seem to be those companies that try to develop a good forum relationship with their user base (e.g. Cakewalk, Ableton, Image Line) and those that remain more aloof (e.g. Sony, Steinberg, Mackie). In view of Tracktion's past it is a pity that Mackie fit into the second group.
I agree with the suggestion that a regular rain-check from Mackie about progress would be a good thing, and (without meaning to go all "Ableton-fanboy" on you) here's an example of how that can look in practice:
http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=26978
If you ARE having a problem with the software, it's good to be able to check on the list and see if it's been/being addressed.
And regarding the view that giving users the heads-up is fooliosh business because it alerts your competitors to your plans... well the policy doesn't seem to be harming Cakewalk, Ableton, etc. one little bit.
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- KVRist
- 233 posts since 10 Aug, 2004
So, what if Jules was getting burnt out on tracktion. The last thing you want is someone no matter how capable of doing the job working on something they start to resent because its consumed their lives and now its time to move on. My bet is thats whats happened and if thats the case, its a good thing and a good time to pass it on.
Tracktion is a diamond in the rough - its worked for me perfectly so i can't say anything bad about it. But honestly, Mackie has to realize they have something here no one else has - truly easy to use software thats 80-90% capable of what the big guys are offering. Thats the key place any company wants to be in - offer almost as much for far less and you'll get a big user base that upgrades regularly and constant cash flow. I'm quite sure they don't want to end that.
I fully agree its far nicer for forum participants to see lots of interaction. But the truth is, likely 95% of users of any software don't visit forums. They just use it and life goes on. So, whether or not they interact with users on forums really doesnt matter at all in the long run.
Small projects eventually become big projects and take on a life of their own. Mackie will either keep up or not - either way, why wouldnt you just enjoy using this stuff now for what it is. I've actually tried to play with Live and a few others and every time i try a new one i keep thinking "oh but thats so easy in trackion". And so i quickly go back and be thankful for what i've got.
steve
Tracktion is a diamond in the rough - its worked for me perfectly so i can't say anything bad about it. But honestly, Mackie has to realize they have something here no one else has - truly easy to use software thats 80-90% capable of what the big guys are offering. Thats the key place any company wants to be in - offer almost as much for far less and you'll get a big user base that upgrades regularly and constant cash flow. I'm quite sure they don't want to end that.
I fully agree its far nicer for forum participants to see lots of interaction. But the truth is, likely 95% of users of any software don't visit forums. They just use it and life goes on. So, whether or not they interact with users on forums really doesnt matter at all in the long run.
Small projects eventually become big projects and take on a life of their own. Mackie will either keep up or not - either way, why wouldnt you just enjoy using this stuff now for what it is. I've actually tried to play with Live and a few others and every time i try a new one i keep thinking "oh but thats so easy in trackion". And so i quickly go back and be thankful for what i've got.
steve
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- KVRAF
- 2495 posts since 18 May, 2004 from ATL-USA
I got 4 pages in and decided to stop with this summary.pHz wrote:im confused ... can i just recap ???
... so ...
T2 is great and running smoother than teflon nikes
T2 is a great steaming bug-ridden pile of pants
jules is a coding god
jules is a sorry sell-out
ducks can code real good
pianists suck
mackie are on the T2 world domination case
mackie cant be arsed to make a decent fist of their first real foray into audio software
headquests a tracktion fanboy
headquests a trolling git
clueless cant work his DAW
rons asleep
slainterob
humphhh...what HAS this world come to...
I personally love Tracktion! I'm not giving up on it and will continue to look forward to the further development of it, however it may happen.
To note, working around the timestretch in Tracktion has improved my abilities. I feel comfortable with working with timestretch in Tracktion because I put in the effort to make it work. It's not ideal, but a heck of a learning tool in that sense. Nonetheless, fitting the functionality of timestretching into the workflow-able nature of Tracktion is definitly on my top 5 FR.
Anti-aliasing is for "synthmonk%ys".
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Headquest,
Well, it's 3 months, then. Still not an eternity, but longer than I was imagining. Since there HAVE been improvements and bugfixes, it probably wouldn't hurt to release more often to the public.
As for forum participation, of course it doesn't hurt to have people stop in. I already agreed with that. But you yourself already agreed that it's not "common", so providing an example of a company that has a different approach still doesn't offer a counter-argument to my point.
What it does is say, "Man, I wish they did it THIS way, and really, they COULD if they wanted to." Which I wouldn't necessarily argue with; however, I also don't really expect it.
Not to mention that your thread you quoted reads identically to threads that Beno posts with the latest releases, so I don't see what's so magical about it. The post details the changes, users respond with positive comments AND a few problems, the developer responds back, the thread is done. Well, except here, the thread goes for 13+ pages.
The other difference is the user base. Let's face it, in that thread, you didn't have a bunch of people jumping in saying, "But ABLETOOooon, you're still missing this, that, and the other pet feature of mine!"
Greg
Well, it's 3 months, then. Still not an eternity, but longer than I was imagining. Since there HAVE been improvements and bugfixes, it probably wouldn't hurt to release more often to the public.
As for forum participation, of course it doesn't hurt to have people stop in. I already agreed with that. But you yourself already agreed that it's not "common", so providing an example of a company that has a different approach still doesn't offer a counter-argument to my point.
What it does is say, "Man, I wish they did it THIS way, and really, they COULD if they wanted to." Which I wouldn't necessarily argue with; however, I also don't really expect it.
Not to mention that your thread you quoted reads identically to threads that Beno posts with the latest releases, so I don't see what's so magical about it. The post details the changes, users respond with positive comments AND a few problems, the developer responds back, the thread is done. Well, except here, the thread goes for 13+ pages.
The other difference is the user base. Let's face it, in that thread, you didn't have a bunch of people jumping in saying, "But ABLETOOooon, you're still missing this, that, and the other pet feature of mine!"
Greg
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- KVRian
- 831 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
I just looked into this thread, since i usually do not read threads with idiotic titles.
I immediately remembered about some posts i wrote soon after the direction of T2 became clear:
The discussion was about the lack of supporting relative controllers and took place in April.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83826
They treat us like usual, so we can act accordingly.
My complaints are:
1. autumn 2005 and still no support of relative controllers or other MIDI-controllers than Mackie's own - i was already thinking about buying a C4, but since it doesn't allow to user-define the location of parameters, i'm not willing to spend that much money
2. still no folder tracks - standard
3. still no screensets for professional navigation and layout - standard
I see two possibilities:
either Mackie gives us a professional product with professional standard features, or they treat T as a nice gimick to sell more HW.
I'm afraid, the "speed" of development in the last months tend to show into the second direction.
I immediately remembered about some posts i wrote soon after the direction of T2 became clear:
The discussion was about the lack of supporting relative controllers and took place in April.
http://www.kvraudio.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=83826
just read @Mackie forums, that T2 does not only not support parameter-feedback like Cubase, but it even doesn't understand relative controller-messages?
Is this really true?!?
Haydxn,
that is good news from you and let me say i appreciate your efforts very much, but once again extremely bad news about T2, but i'm wondering now, why you and others flamed me about my complaining about the lack of parameter feedback in another thread.
I'm sure this was not overlooked, but is an icecold marketing decision to force the Tracktion community to buy Mackie controls, if they want to automate T2 in a decent and normal way these days, without jumping faders.
Hell, there even were responses of people, that they can automate T2 very well with their absolute-MIDI-controllers, - things that didn't work already 10 years ago!
Please tell me, the Tracktion community also has serious users.
I see once again, fanboys are definately not good for developing a product further, because they do not represent the critical, serious customer, nor does the number of posts reflect the level of music-production and it's a shame for this community, that so many childs? rave about an email from Mackie regarding T2, but no one tells them, what bastards they are, if they want to force the consumers to buy Mackie-Controls, if they want to MIDI-control T2 in a non-ridiculous way.
I wish you good luck with the BCR-implentation, and i'm afraid T2-users will desperately need it, if they can't afford a C4, and today i'm even more sure, that Jules has nothing to decide anymore. Obviously the managers took over T2 and thanks to the supporting fanboys, they can follow their dirty plans without being disturbed.
At the moment T2 is nothing more than a v1.8 for at least doubled price. Well done Mackie!
When will that be? In half a year? Or when they recognize, T2 isn't selling that much MCUs as hoped?
Come on, are you that naive to believe such an important thing like relative controllers were overlooked, since the MCUs support it since ages?
This is a typical marketing decision and if it doesn't work, or the pressure rises, then they will implement it.
But that's the difference between the revolutionary groundbraking T1-concept i know, and the marketing-driven products.
Since the company treats it's customers more and more like a normal company (bad feedback and lack of information), i don't see a reason, why we as customers should treat them as if it still were Jules, who stands behind it.haydxn,
i don't think you are naive regarding the MCU-thing you work on. That is fantastic.
But i think you are naive in terms of marketing decisions.
Nevertheless, i hope, you will be right and i will be wrong - in less then a half year.
They treat us like usual, so we can act accordingly.
My complaints are:
1. autumn 2005 and still no support of relative controllers or other MIDI-controllers than Mackie's own - i was already thinking about buying a C4, but since it doesn't allow to user-define the location of parameters, i'm not willing to spend that much money
2. still no folder tracks - standard
3. still no screensets for professional navigation and layout - standard
I see two possibilities:
either Mackie gives us a professional product with professional standard features, or they treat T as a nice gimick to sell more HW.
I'm afraid, the "speed" of development in the last months tend to show into the second direction.
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- KVRian
- 1022 posts since 7 Sep, 2004
I have to admit, deep down I'm confident that T2 is going to pick up pace a bit soon.
I think it's similar to what happened with the 3D program, Lightwave. Basically, all the original programmers wanted to move onto other things, so the community generally got the sense that the application was just sitting gathering dust whilst the only company members left were businessmen proselytising a 'dead' product.
Fact was, a new team had been hired, and the reason that updates were slow in coming is that this new team had to take time to sit down with the code, look at the architecture and be very cautious about making changes until everyone (in the new dev team) understood completely how the code worked and how everything was put together before making large changes.
The first few updates seemed pretty menial. Small changes to the UI, some 3rd party plugins thrown in and made to look like part of the original package. However, a couple of months down the line the new version has come up to pace with all the refinements one would expect of competing packages. The original idea and usability is still there, but the new team now have the expertise to move the application forward. I sense similar things will happen in T2.
I'm going to take a break from KVR. There's an old saying, "overfamiliarity breeds contempt", and the relative anonymity of forums tends to make fools of all us, in the end.
I think it's similar to what happened with the 3D program, Lightwave. Basically, all the original programmers wanted to move onto other things, so the community generally got the sense that the application was just sitting gathering dust whilst the only company members left were businessmen proselytising a 'dead' product.
Fact was, a new team had been hired, and the reason that updates were slow in coming is that this new team had to take time to sit down with the code, look at the architecture and be very cautious about making changes until everyone (in the new dev team) understood completely how the code worked and how everything was put together before making large changes.
The first few updates seemed pretty menial. Small changes to the UI, some 3rd party plugins thrown in and made to look like part of the original package. However, a couple of months down the line the new version has come up to pace with all the refinements one would expect of competing packages. The original idea and usability is still there, but the new team now have the expertise to move the application forward. I sense similar things will happen in T2.
I'm going to take a break from KVR. There's an old saying, "overfamiliarity breeds contempt", and the relative anonymity of forums tends to make fools of all us, in the end.
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- KVRAF
- Topic Starter
- 5782 posts since 10 Mar, 2003 from Music Shed #8
oooooooooh, smell 'er!Barbarossa wrote:i usually do not read threads with idiotic titles.
I read jules' post (the one I quoted) and thought "hmmm..." (with a slight frown). You know, the way people do? Hence the title.
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- KVRAF
- 7489 posts since 6 Jul, 2004
OK, let me clarify that then.Lunch Money wrote: Not to mention that your thread you quoted reads identically to threads that Beno posts with the latest releases, so I don't see what's so magical about it. The post details the changes, users respond with positive comments AND a few problems, the developer responds back, the thread is done.
Since Live 5.0.1 was released (two months ago) Ableton have been hard at work on Live 5.0.2, which includes several new features, enhancements, and more than 100 bug fixes. The thread I refered to before contains a detailed list of all those improvements, with links to previous betas.
Remember this 5.0.2 release is not yet public
Now here's the contrast:
* Ableton are providing a complete list of upcoming fixes and improvements, properly catalogued, in one oragnised place.
* It's a public list that anyone can read - not just beta testers - not even just registered users
* Anyone can also download the beta for themselves and check out whether the fixes work on their own system. This is an efficient way of identifying and addressing system specific issues for the whole user-base
* Anyone can then provide feedback directly on that thread, and the relevant Ableton developer will respond in person, usually the same day
In the case of Tracktion, you are a beta tester, and you confirmed in your post that many bugs have already been fixed. As a user who is experiencing REAL problems with T2, I'm naturally keen to find out if they specifically have been adressed, but as an ordinary user, communication about this has actually been next to zero.
I accept and agree with your point that this is not "common". It is widely acknowledged that Ableton are well ahead of most others in this respect. I intend this post as a polite request that Mackie might follow their example, and not as a deliberately negative comparisson, and I hope all readers will accept it in that mature positive manner
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- KVRAF
- 12977 posts since 29 Sep, 2003 from Ottawa, Canada
Fair enough. Any of those points are certainly only in the best interest of Mackie and the user base.
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- KVRer
- 19 posts since 30 Jun, 2005
I have to chip in too though I am very new to Tracktion, this board and general recording aspect in itself. It makes me wonder and laugh when someone says that "We ask Jules for an updated feature and it would be available with in a weeks time". I am a programmer and program manager myself (not in the same line though) and I would hate to admit how frustrating it can be to push frequent updates as you guys expect here. Jules may have done it in past but it would be hard to imagine if he would have done it willingly. In the long run, every programmer knows that this constant updates and pushing bites more than anything else.
Another thing you all have to understand is that Mackie like any other company may have its own rules and procedures that may be followed before sending out public beta. As product grows and more people are involved, the turn around time for updates, patches, etc increases. This is normal to any software product and practices followed through out the industry and nothing specific to Tracktion, Mackie or a music software.
Jules must have been a genius to create this tool but that doesnt mean that he will remain attached to it forever...He probably needs to move on to maybe create a new little wonder for us guys!!
Another thing you all have to understand is that Mackie like any other company may have its own rules and procedures that may be followed before sending out public beta. As product grows and more people are involved, the turn around time for updates, patches, etc increases. This is normal to any software product and practices followed through out the industry and nothing specific to Tracktion, Mackie or a music software.
Jules must have been a genius to create this tool but that doesnt mean that he will remain attached to it forever...He probably needs to move on to maybe create a new little wonder for us guys!!