indistinguishable from hardware ??

[pdxindy]

There is just no chance I am going to go back to hardware. If I had a minimoog I would sell it. Software is good enough for me and so much more convenient. And bit by bit (pun intended) software gets closer to all aspects of the classic hardware.

[Gonga]

All software emulations of anologue synths fail miserably.

I agree. Thankfully Zebra doesn't emulate any particular hardware. It simply sounds better that way.

Thank you. Trying to emulate analogues is just the wrong thing to do at the moment. It's much better to create something unique, like you did.

And interestingly, after trying for a long time with many VAs, Zebra has been the only synth that's allowed me to achieve sounds that were important to me that I used to get with analogs (like the classic sustain attack popular with Duke and Hammer), and in my opinion it's better for getting many classic minimoog and Arp Oddysey sounds than any of the emulations I've tried (I've tried most or all of them).

There are significant differences that exist, and these differences don't matter to most synthesists or listeners. But I don't care much about most synthesists or listeners, I care about my reaction to the sound primarily. In my experience the differences matter most to older people experienced with great analog gear who have been frustrated to have to abandon whole repertoires of sonic exploration (high frequency pitch-bending and sync sweeps without aliasing, sustain attack, etc.). Even the Moogs had declined in certain areas (my Voyager had awful aliasing). For me, no VA was satisfactory until I discovered ACE, Massive and Zebra. There are others too of course. So far for me, Zebra is the only synth I've heard that sounds anywhere nearly as close to an old school attack, which for me is critically important.

[Gonga]

Well, despite the fact the last 7 pages have mostly been people replying to Izonin's trolling nonsense, I'll reply.

Having a contrary opinion isn't trolling. It might be disagreeably stated, and you (and I, for that matter) might consider the evidence wanting and the reasoning faulty, but if the poster really holds the opinion and isn't just trying to wind people up for the "fun" of watching the fight, I wouldn't call it trolling.

A troll just wants reactions, positive or -- far better -- negative, to keep the pot boiling. I don't think izonin is trolling. Most of what he said was wrong IMO, but that's not the same thing. I figure he really does believe what he's saying. *shrug* To me it doesn't seem worth disputing past a post or two but maybe I'm weird that way (can't eat popcorn any longer).

There are a couple trolls in this thread however - of the bullying kind. After going on and on harrassing one person as they have in this thread they'd be banned at many other forums, including mine.

[Gonga]

This discussion reminds me digital photography forums where people are adding grain and scratches to digital images so that they look "just like in the good old days". New generation who've never used film actually does not give a shyte. Software is more convenient, cheaper and flexible - where are typewriters, arythmometers etc?

P.S. I'm not talking real acoustic instruments here - that is a completely different story

An interesting point, but I respectfully disagree. imo there are analog synths with sound that is so sweet as to rival acoustic instruments. The problem has always been controlling the nuances.

[Gonga]

I know a trick I did in SE was assign the low value of the Attack a -1 to make it snappy.

Is this "snappy"?

http://www.maxsynths.com/TEMP/OSCTest1.wav

(already posted previously)


BTW the new ADSR (ADSR2) module in SE doesn't have a negative value by default when set to min? (can't remember...)

Not by my standards MaxSynths.

You probably know this, but for the sake of continuity of the thread, what all the old analogs did well was a killer attack that was simply achieved by putting all the VCA ADSRs down all the way, then nudging the sustain up a tad. Crank up the volume and get ready for some serious minimoog bass or lead work.

This is Zebra doing a snappy attack. I apologize for not having better samples, but I'm working on an Omnisphere project atm. Omnisphere cannot quite meet Zebra's level in the VA category. "Listen and weep:"

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/zebra/ ... ck%202.mp3

When I'm doing distorted leads (think guitar-like sounds) a real punchy attack makes a huge difference to the sound because it defines the beginning of each rapid-fire note amidst all the distortion and flanged wildness.

As far as I know (frequently in the past a limitation!) Zebra is the only VA that can do anything like this. I can't wait to start using it for some funky bass. I'm working on an ambient piece now!

btw, I haven't been able to get Zebra to be as snappy as an old Moog, Arp or my old SH-1000, but it's getting good enough for gubmint work!

[Acid Mitch]

Even the Moogs had declined in certain areas (my Voyager had awful aliasing).

That's interesting. How can you get aliasing from an analogue signal path ?
Aliasing is a digital phenomenon.

[Acid Mitch]

An interesting point, but I respectfully disagree. imo there are analog synths with sound that is so sweet as to rival acoustic instruments.

+1

[Ingonator]

This is Zebra doing a snappy attack. I apologize for not having better samples, but I'm working on an Omnisphere project atm. Omnisphere cannot quite meet Zebra's level in the VA category.

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/zebra/ ... ck%202.mp3

When I'm doing distorted leads (think guitar-like sounds) a real punchy attack makes a huge difference to the sound because it defines the beginning of each rapid-fire note amidst all the distortion and flanged wildness.

As far as I know (frequently in the past a limitation!) Zebra is the only VA that can do anything like this. I can't wait to start using it for some funky bass. I'm working on an ambient piece now!

btw, I haven't been able to get Zebra to be as snappy as an old Moog, Arp or my old SH-1000, but it's getting good enough for gubmint work!

I recently got a Moog Slim Phatty rack, programmed spme patches on it (actually a full bank which i want to release soon...) and made samples of 6 waveforms (Tri, Saw, Square and 3 Pulses).
As Synthmaster 2.5 supports those i have created multi single cycles (like multi samples but for single cycles) of those waveforms and currently try to use those in Synthmaster 2.5. As Synthmaster within the graphical envelopes got adjustable slopes for each step i'll try to make some punchy basses soon. Some leads í made already sound quite close (also in the low end where most other softsynths lack!!) but again it's not 100% the same which still seems to be impossible.

Synthmaster could use free running oscillators which prevents most of the phasing and flanging.

I'll try to do a Bass preset with Synthmaster today and post a demo of that and a Slim Phatty Bass sound here.


Ingo

[ariston]

An interesting point, but I respectfully disagree. imo there are analog synths with sound that is so sweet as to rival acoustic instruments. The problem has always been controlling the nuances.

This really is an interesting point, which allows us to connect with the real world again. Synth aficionados aside, many of the typical (non-musician) listeners react to synths of any kind with a sort of "meh, it's an artificial sound". In their POV, we are discussing whether some artificial, robot-like, lifeless sounds are able to truly mimic other artificial, robot-like, lifeless sounds.

I'm not disagreeing with you, just getting another perspective on it. My sister, for example, couldn't care less about Minimonsta vs. Minimoog, she'd walk out and put on some "real" music (like Jack Johnson, god forbid).

[Richard_Synapse]

This really is an interesting point, which allows us to connect with the real world again. Synth aficionados aside, many of the typical (non-musician) listeners react to synths of any kind with a sort of "meh, it's an artificial sound". In their POV, we are discussing whether some artificial, robot-like, lifeless sounds are able to truly mimic other artificial, robot-like, lifeless sounds.

So true! Given that aliasing problems are solved in most professional synths, the difference that remains is mostly a somewhat subtle change in timbre.

I'm curious to see whether the new breed of VA algorithms to emerge will be successful among producers or not, given that they'll eat a lot more CPU and/or compromise the feature set to some extent. While I think they will be successful, I doubt they'll replace anything out there today. More likely it's just going to fill a gap, for certain types of sounds/situations.

Richard

[hakey]

Even the Moogs had declined in certain areas (my Voyager had awful aliasing).

How can you get aliasing from an analogue signal path ?

I guess he confused aliasing with zipper noise.

[trimph1]

I know that some do find synths to be cold and lifeless in themselves but, sometimes, I can confound them with someone like Sun Ra for instance.

It might be that it really depends on who is turning the knob so to speak

[Ingonator]

This is Zebra doing a snappy attack. I apologize for not having better samples, but I'm working on an Omnisphere project atm. Omnisphere cannot quite meet Zebra's level in the VA category.

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/zebra/ ... ck%202.mp3

When I'm doing distorted leads (think guitar-like sounds) a real punchy attack makes a huge difference to the sound because it defines the beginning of each rapid-fire note amidst all the distortion and flanged wildness.

As far as I know (frequently in the past a limitation!) Zebra is the only VA that can do anything like this. I can't wait to start using it for some funky bass. I'm working on an ambient piece now!

btw, I haven't been able to get Zebra to be as snappy as an old Moog, Arp or my old SH-1000, but it's getting good enough for gubmint work!

I recently got a Moog Slim Phatty rack, programmed spme patches on it (actually a full bank which i want to release soon...) and made samples of 6 waveforms (Tri, Saw, Square and 3 Pulses).
As Synthmaster 2.5 supports those i have created multi single cycles (like multi samples but for single cycles) of those waveforms and currently try to use those in Synthmaster 2.5. As Synthmaster within the graphical envelopes got adjustable slopes for each step i'll try to make some punchy basses soon. Some leads í made already sound quite close (also in the low end where most other softsynths lack!!) but again it's not 100% the same which still seems to be impossible.

Synthmaster could use free running oscillators which prevents most of the phasing and flanging.

I'll try to do a Bass preset with Synthmaster today and post a demo of that and a Slim Phatty Bass sound here.


Ingo

I have just created a Bass preset on Synthmaster 2.5 which uses the internal Arpeggiator and 2 Oscillators based on single cycles (better: multi single cycles) cretaed with samples of a Moog Slim Phatty. The Modwheel is used to change the Slope of the Decay stage of the envelopes which ends in a "clicking sound". This demo uses a single instance of Synthmaster 2.5 and no internal or external FXs are used.

link: http://soundcloud.com/ingoweidner/ingo- ... ass-demo-1


Note:
I just noticed that there is some "metallic noise" (or "ringing noise") in the background when playing the file in SoundCloud. This could not be found in the original sound or the original MP3. If i download the file on SoundCloud it seems to be OK too. Maybe someone could report if he observes the same.

UPDATE:
I thought there could be a problem with clipping and i changed the file at Soundcould but in the Soundcloud Player it sounds the same. The download version should be OK. Maybe Soundcloud uses a strange EQ setting at import.


Ingo

[ariston]

I know that some do find synths to be cold and lifeless in themselves but, sometimes, I can confound them with someone like Sun Ra for instance.

It might be that it really depends on who is turning the knob so to speak

Which is exactly my point. I think having a synth that maximises your ability to program sounds that "live and breathe", that are expressive and "organic", is way more important than "analogue fidelity". In that sense, soft synths are a godsend.

[MaxSynths]

Is this "snappy"?

http://www.maxsynths.com/TEMP/OSCTest1.wav

Not by my standards MaxSynths.

Thank you for the reply Gonga...

what all the old analogs did well was a killer attack that was simply achieved by putting all the VCA ADSRs down all the way, then nudging the sustain up a tad.

I wanted to try with a sound in a "tipical" situation. Just tried using the "extreme" settings you have used in your clip to highlight the "snap" sound:

http://www.maxsynths.com/TEMP/OSCTest2.wav

If I raise the decay the snap sound became way too loud.
After two or three threads like this I've decided to run some "experiments" (code name of the project: "Versus").