How important is VST3 support for you as a customer

[koolkeys]

I'm not sure what you mean by my "only problem" with VST3. I could go on and on. But most issues are on the development end and I don't want to bore the laypersons or get wildly off topic.

You apparently have an issue with Steinberg and their marketing, which seems to drive your objections against VST3 more than anything else.

Game. Set. Match.

[zvenx]

bM3w, not sure if you know there is a whole south park skit on fishsticks so it is a double play.
rsp

[aciddose]

i knew he liked fishsticks

stupidest joke ever, but still funny.

vst3 isn't "that bad", it's just more an issue of why should you bother? the argument is that it has poly after-touch, or that it has side-chaining, or that it has a string based dispatch, or that... all things vst2 has already.

why couldn't they fix vst2 rather than change everything and introduce a whole new set of irritations?

sort of like apple with osx - 64bit requires cocoa gui for example. it's because they feel it'll be easier for people to accept being forced to change due to apple's or stienberg's earlier incompetence (they should never have written the bad code in the first place, to now need to fix it) if they tie it into another "feature".

it's like slipping in extra tags on a bill about discounts on wheelchair wheel replacements for the elderly. it's a con.

[Urs]

urs; of course i was making a generalization when i said nobody cares. some people do, but ten? you'd have to agree the generalization is practical, no?

Yes, I noticed you were making a generalisation.

AQ complains about the amount of work involved with VST3 support, but if it took him two days and if he sold 10 items because of that, then he would certainly have a benefit.

My 10 is just an educated guess. A quick search for "poly aftertouch" in my mail programme revealed 8 people who discussed PolyAT in the past. That's just the ones who gave feedback by email. There may be more people who use it.

The same appears to be the case with note expressions. I recently had a group of film composers over at the studio and some of them specifically asked for this as part of my VST3 implementation. So I guess it's going to be an asked for feature, and adding support will create some customer love. Nothing wrong with that I suppose

Urs

[bM3w]

bM3w, not sure if you know there is a whole south park skit on fishsticks so it is a double play.
rsp

Nope, I didn't know about that episode, but thanks to the Internet I now do. Soooo aciddose, beware the revenge

[trimph1]

I think that it also has to do with one's priorities I suspect. And, if so, then why the hoohaw?

It might be an idea to go with VST3 but why put pressure on everyone to do this?

[aciddose]

my theory is that it's actually intended to force license agreements - because as i said vst2's interface isn't protected by copyright under current case-law.

neither would be rtas, vst3, au, dxi or any of those formats with implementation in the code - but that's more obscure. i'd need to dig up case-law to show where interoperability use has over-ridden copyright on sourcecode for com-like interfaces. as would any developer - making for FUD (fear, uncertainty and doubt) which forces people to sign into contracts with steinberg, or give up certain control over their own sourcecode.

vst2 is far more secure. vst3 - at any time - could be completely dropped, or changed in obtrusive ways to push out competitors. keep note it's now a possession of yamaha.

vst3 = yamaha.

[bM3w]

...adding support will create some customer love. Nothing wrong with that I suppose

That's exactly what makes you stand out from many other devs! There are tons of good products out there, but there are only a few devs/companies who truly embrace what you call "customer love". For me that's an important "feature" which by all means drives my purchase decisions. I'm pretty sure I'm not all alone with that opinion...

[zvenx]

...adding support will create some customer love. Nothing wrong with that I suppose

That's exactly what makes you stand out from many other devs! There are tons of good products out there, but there are only a few devs/companies who truly embrace what you call "customer love". For me that's an important "feature" which by all means drives my purchase decisions. I'm pretty sure I'm not all alone with that opinion...

you aren't
rsp

[AdmiralQuality]

Maybe in a day or two you should re-read your posts and you may notice how biased you are. I won't argue with you about the technical side of things, but let me tell you that from an end users point of view you cast a damning light on yourself and your company. All I read is "marketing BS", "employed by SB", "customers don't need VST3" and other blah blah blah. If you don't like what SB does, fine with me, if you don't offer VST3 for any of your products, fine with me, but please don't tell ANYONE what they need and what not!

You're reversing cause and effect. No, I don't much like SB lately. This is WHY.

[AdmiralQuality]

AQ complains about the amount of work involved with VST3 support, but if it took him two days and if he sold 10 items because of that, then he would certainly have a benefit.

I figure more like 2 or 3 months (allowing for surprises, of which there's always plenty).

Remember, I have special controls, I don't use plain vanilla VSTGUI in my plug-ins. They've been heavily modified, fixed and new features added (variable angle of range including freewheeling, and knob with detents being the big new features I created). It took a good couple months to do that subclassing in the first place, and test and work out the bugs. But that was in VSTGUI 3.0 so I'm married to that work now (as they refactored everything in 3.6).

I'm also still seeing lots of people having problems with the various wrappers and platform targets and VSTGUI on the mailing lists. Are you telling me the VST3.5 SDK works out of the box? Cross platform? x64? If so I might just start a new project on it. But throwing out a well tested framework/API for an unknown new one, with NO functional benefit, strikes me as irresponsible.

It would be 2 or 3 months work, at which point I (hopefully) lift my head up out of it and find that I have a plug-in that does exactly what it did 3 months ago, just with a new VST version number, that doesn't actually make it compatible with any hosts that it wasn't already compatible with as a VST 2.4 plug-in.

THIS is the entirety of my decision matrix for adopting VST3. My customer feelings for SB don't factor in on that. I do resent the way they play their game just the same as my customers would resent me wasting 3 months on nothing. But I'm realistic about corporations and how they behave. But what irks me is the minor percentage here in this poll who think they're missing something without VST3. All anyone is missing is the chance to pay for all your tools again (and note expression, vital note expression without which electronic music can no longer be made).

[koolkeys]

But throwing out a well tested framework/API for an unknown new one, with NO functional benefit,

This really sums it up all over again. You don't like Steiny, we get it.

Your words speak louder than your words, if you know what I mean.

Brent

[AdmiralQuality]

But throwing out a well tested framework/API for an unknown new one, with NO functional benefit,

This really sums it up all over again. You don't like Steiny, we get it.

Your words speak louder than your words, if you know what I mean.

Brent

I keep throwing out simple facts, and some of you keep responding with this crap. My words speak for themselves. If you can understand what they mean, you can understand my feelings. Again, you're reversing cause and effect. Don't quote my FACTS then state that it's anything but. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't like THAT much either.

In a related note, how long have you been a child molester koolkeys?

[koolkeys]

But throwing out a well tested framework/API for an unknown new one, with NO functional benefit,

This really sums it up all over again. You don't like Steiny, we get it.

Your words speak louder than your words, if you know what I mean.

Brent

I keep throwing out simple facts, and some of you keep responding with this crap. My words speak for themselves. If you can understand what they mean, you can understand my feelings. Again, you're reversing cause and effect. Don't quote my FACTS then state that it's anything but. You're putting words in my mouth, and I don't like THAT much either.

You haven't thrown out any facts. You have blatantly ignored the difference between NE and PA, every time. You make assumptions that anyone who disagrees just doesn't know what they are talking about, including potential customers who voted in this thread. You've made assumptions about intentions of those who do want VST3.5(they must be employed by Steinberg, and that's the only reason!).

I didn't put any words in your mouth. You just don't want to get it.

Not my fault.

In a related note, how long have you been a child molester koolkeys?

Well, I guess your maturity shows through here. That's about the most idiotic, non-funny, and immature statement you could have made. And you think customers won't see this? You know, like your past incidents where you accused those who don't like your synth of being warez users.

Sorry, but your colors show through with statements like that. No smiley will change that.

Brent

[AdmiralQuality]

You haven't thrown out any facts. You have blatantly ignored the difference between NE and PA, every time.

No I haven't. I'm a developer. I breathe this stuff. And, conceptually, they're the same. A per-note control stream. And yes, you can have more than one of them with NE. Why I still don't know, but then I perform with keyboards and guitars, not mice.

You make assumptions that anyone who disagrees just doesn't know what they are

I think you will find that anywhere I do make an assumption, I say so, and invite correction (with facts, not these personal attacks that you make).

talking about, including potential customers who voted in this thread. You've made assumptions about intentions of those who do want VST3.5(they must be employed by Steinberg, and that's the only reason!).

Your MOM is a potential customer! Sucking up to every citizen of this fair planet in the hopes that it'll drive sales would be a VERY poor business model. Here we go again with this whole KVR attutide that developers don't have the right to an opinion. Again, again, AGAIN... I'M A CUSTOMER TOO.

I didn't put any words in your mouth. You just don't want to get it.

Not my fault.

Your exact words were: "Your words speak louder than your words," Implying that there's some hidden subtext that only psychological geniuses like yourself can uncover, then have the nerve to tell ME that that's what I meant. I know what I meant and I meant MY POINTS.

In a related note, how long have you been a child molester koolkeys?

Well, I guess your maturity shows through here. That's about the most idiotic, non-funny, and immature statement you could have made. And you think customers won't see this? You know, like your past incidents where you accused those who don't like your synth of being warez users(and you may not remember, I even defended you when you came back).

Sorry, but your colors show through with statements like that. No smiley will change that.

Brent

That's what ALL the child molesters say! (Sorry, you started the witch hunt buddy.)