KVR Audio

Doug1978 · Post by **Doug1978** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:09 am

^^ Just hope this thread doesn't get locked, as I for one am looking forward to finding out the results of the 5 SW/HW examples.
Please fellas.

Peter999 · Post by **Peter999** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:21 am

I can't really understand the excitement. Why this fuss? It's just some riddle fun! No need for angry words.

We have 11 votes so far, and what I really didn't expect, that none of the 5 examples got a one-way vote from all 11

trimph1 · Post by **trimph1** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:22 am

Yes. For once just get over yourselves.

This is not a battle that has to be won at all costs.

musikmachine · Post by **musikmachine** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:27 am

Peter999 wrote:I can't really understand the excitement. Why this fuss? It's just some riddle fun! No need for angry words.

We have 11 votes so far, and what I really didn't expect, that none of the 5 examples got a one-way vote from all 11

So no first prize copy of OP-X Pro?

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:30 am

Lotuzia wrote:Yes but there's no real world "like this", imho actually there are merely several subcultures interpenetrating themselves in this precise real world. Most classical musicians I know are very curious about synthesizers. Actually they are really very open minded ( and sometimes much more than some synthlovers debating if such track is really "dubstep" -put the genre you want here- or "not so dubstep" )

Synths can sound robotic and artificial, and this can also be a wish of the musician ( a la Kraftwerk ),

but ..... They don't have to

If someone is trying to achieve some lively and organic parts with a synth and that he fails, its just because he doesnt have the right synth, the right instrument/patch, or he does not know how to make them breathe/sound. Or a combination of the above. The limit case is when someone wants to mimic a real acoustic/electric instrument, but thats probably another debate.

Synths instruments ( aka presets ) can be very complex, some even need some unusual keyboard techniques to shine. If one don't put understanding and effort into playing synthesiszers, its very likely that they will sound unexpressive, but as some sax players usually invest several years to find their own sound with a single instrument, I guess synth players should not complain too much.

Remind me I once saw Joe Zawinul playing (mostly analog) synthesizers, it was NOT my impression that he sounded robotic, or artificial, nor inexpressive ......

Of course, there are tons of other examples of gifted musicians who used synths but I dont know why, this one immediatly came to my mind when I saw your post.

LtZ

+1

bwwd · Post by **bwwd** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:32 am

wow so many pages and nobody even mentioned SQ8L ?
http://capp.itec.kit.edu/~buchty/sq80/s ... vsSQ8L.mp3

aciddose · Post by **aciddose** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:35 am

i'm fine with the whole "which one is analog" poll, as long as you recognize it's been done a million times, it's pointless, and you never attempt to draw conclusions from it.

the only conclusion of course that you can draw is that subjectively, people seem to associate properties favored for either A or B with the subjective label "analog". you might find the result is totally random, or you might find a skew toward the correct answer, or the incorrect answer.

ultimately though you must admit you're not actually measuring anything.

just as "fun", sure.

i wasn't responding to comments that were based upon "fun".

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:44 am

PAK wrote:
Gonga wrote:As far as I know (frequently in the past a limitation!) Zebra is the only VA that can do anything like this.
?? Lots of VST's can do clicking envelopes if that's the behaviour you want. Here's OP-X Pro II. I did a rough copy of the sound you played and set it to snap. As the title suggests, your sound first, OP-X is second.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/37542806/OPXis2nd_SNAP.mp3

Yeah, that's a good attack. That makes two VAs! I've spent time with the OP-X and it's a great synth. It doesn't have the pitch bend settings I prefer - 3 up and 12 down.

A.M. Gold · Post by **A.M. Gold** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:47 am

Peter999 wrote:I can't really understand the excitement. Why this fuss? It's just some riddle fun! No need for angry words.

Fun for the purpose of fun, or fun for the purpose of trying to prove something?

If it's the latter, then it isn't just fun, it's part of an agenda.

musikmachine · Post by **musikmachine** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:48 am

I thought the point of the poll was to demonstrate that a good emu wasn't easily distinguishable from the hardware.

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 1:53 am

MaxSynths wrote:@Peter: it's not impossible to fake a sound. The problem is when you REALLY play an instrument. As soon as you tweak a knob you can hear the difference between a real analog and a soft synth.

I could link a piano sample and ask if it's real or fake... it would sound real to a lot of people, maybe professional pianists too. The problem is if you have to play it live.

I firmly believe that analog and virtual are two different kind of instruments and must be used each for its unique features.

+1

A.M. Gold · Post by **A.M. Gold** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:00 am

aciddose wrote:i'm fine with the whole "which one is analog" poll, as long as you recognize it's been done a million times, it's pointless, and you never attempt to draw conclusions from it.

the only conclusion of course that you can draw is that subjectively, people seem to associate properties favored for either A or B with the subjective label "analog".

There's also the small problem that analog synthesis spans almost two decades of very active production, and then there have been large numbers of smaller scale production companies since then. Just because something is analog doesn't mean it has all the same properties of every other analog. Some analogs sound like crap, some sound comparable to good digital synths, and some, IMO, sound better.

I also feel that the things I dislike about most digital synths aren't across the board, i.e. some aspects of them tend to bother me, others don't.

Throwing out a generic poll/quiz in which some of the synths are analog synths presented in some kind of context featuring some kind of voice programming and some kind of recording setup and then putting those up against some other digital synths, all within the same kind of vague framework, is so hazy and has so few clinical-style controls associated with it that I think whatever results are obtained from it would be questionable at best.

Gonga · Post by **Gonga** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:17 am

Completely agree. PAK said it earlier.

Ingonator's snappy patch sounds pretty good for sure, though I still think it's a bit sloppy. It has punch and power but doesn't quite blast on with as sudden a transient as Zebra does (I don't think!)

MaxSynths patch nailed it pretty well. Which synth is this used on the OSCTest2.wav file?

I don't have experience with the OB-X, so I won't do well on this test. I used to have an Oberheim FVS-1, but that didn't help in this test. Frankly, I don't find the oscillators or filters to be the main issue I have with emulations. For me it's artifacts and attacks. They are so obvious that I can train people to recognize the differences in a short period of time. I had my daughter recognizing aliasing quickly. And the attack thing is really easy, though as with the example PAK posted which was good but maybe not as good, there it gets tricky. The good news is there are VSTs now that are imo, the best "analog" synths ever created. Zebra can do pretty much anything I used to do with any of the old analogs I used (though sounding differently) and can of course do much more. It won't be long before these types of discussions will be history, lost to the history of great VST innovators like Urs Heckmann.

Regarding my Voyager, yes, it could be it was zippering and not aliasing. Here's a recording I still have:

http://danling.com/studio/sounds/RME&Triton.wav

I play a 3-semitone glide (smooth) then a pitch-bend (zippered). Then repeat an octave higher. That's a Voyager being controlled with a Korg Triton Extreme, sounding like crap! It was the rack mount, so you needed to control it with midi, for what it's worth (not sure whether bender on reg Voyager used midi or not). This is a well-documented issue on their forum, not just me. Rudi Linhardt (sp?) promised me he'd fix it, but never did, so I sold it. IMO, the Lil' Phatty is the best thing with midi, and I would have loved to pick up an Old School.

Before I give my results, I'd like to say that I could put together a limited test of attacks and could definitely tell the difference, but my Roland is in the basement in a box. Anybody who has a Mini D, or Odyssey, or old Roland, etc. could do the sustain attack sample and then we could see whether ANY of the VSTs could match it. And most people could tell the difference. That would be an easier test to do.

So my guess is the analog is

1
2
1
2
1

I felt most strongly about the first two, the last one was tricky. Actually they are all tricky - not the easiest, most straight-forward test we could do imo.

Urs · Post by **Urs** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:23 am

Peter999 wrote:Thanks for voting

I think I'll wait with the solution until Urs' vote tomorrow, this one shouldn't miss really!

Don't wait for me... I won't be in the studio before 12 hours from now...

PAK · Post by **PAK** » Sat Nov 05, 2011 2:26 am

aciddose wrote:everything i said was objective. my commentary is 100% objective.

The fact that you don't think your commentary is chock full of subjective remarks makes me smile. Part of me thinks you might even believe that. And, if that's the case, who am I to argue?

actually it doesn't really matter which source matches which clip - the emulation is definitely terrible.

Well there you go then. Now we all know Oberheim synths "suck balls" too. More importantly, we know "why". Thank you for your valuable contributions to the thread.

indistinguishable from hardware ??